I have one of these and I'm just about ready to give it away. The problem is it doesn't fit a use case that I don't have better solutions for. I've found that writing on the screen makes me prefer paper; reading on the screen makes me prefer books. I wanted to like the DC-1 but every time I use it something feels off. Maybe that's partly because I don't enjoy the Android experience.
I've written about this before, but I too gave up on my Daylight - even though I truly love what they are trying to accomplish.
I found it:
- oddly heavy, the Daylight is made of all plastic (body & screen) - yet it’s heavier than an iPad Air made from metal & glass.
- handwriting lag, the input lags when I use the pen is so much that it distracts me while writing a sentence. I have to concentrate to ensure it’s keeping up with each letter I write. No such lag exists with my iPad Air.
- no setup instructions or tutorial on its unique gestures. You boot it up and have to figure out how it works and getting it on WiFi
- display resolution is much worse than I was expecting.
- when using chrome, webpages render incredibly small. I’m having to constantly zoom in. There’s a setting in chrome about “desktop mode” but it made no difference.
And I also wasn’t expecting to have to sign up for a Google account to even get Daylight OS/software updates. (Maybe I don’t but that’s what the Google App Store made it seem like).
* Note: I truly love the idea of Daylight, and I hope they succeed. But in my mind, a considerable device improvement needs to be made to realize that vision.
Until then, I’ll revert back to using my iPad Air (and now with nano-texture coming more broadly across Apple lines, Daylight is going to have that much more to overcome - because Apple is also cheaper product).
> handwriting lag, the input lags when I use the pen is so much that it distracts me while writing a sentence
Oh, that's a deal-breaker for me.
I currently have a Remarkable 2, and the handwriting latency is imperceptible - it feels like I'm writing with a physical pen. However, the latency of doing anything except writing is very high - it takes almost a second to undo/redo or open the pen palette, for instance.
The advertised 60Hz display of the Daylight and the underlying Android platform (that makes it possible for me to write my own applications, something that is technically possible but difficult and unreliable on the RM2) made it sound like an upgrade, but if handwriting latency is bad enough that it doesn't feel like paper anymore, I think I'll stick with a combination of my RM2 and desktop.
Theoretically this is something fixable in software (in which case I'm sold), but from what I've heard about Android, it's very much not latency-optimized in either the video or audio space.
FWIW, I have both an RM2 and a DC1 and the handwriting lag feels similar to me on both (and quite perceptible on the RM2). YMMV.
Either your RM2 has something wrong with it, or you're (enviously) sensitive to latency. Both the marketing team[1] and independent testing[2] show that latency is under 25 ms.
That also doesn't seem consistent with GP post that "the input lags when I use the pen is so much that it distracts me while writing a sentence" which shouldn't be in the same category as 25ms.
I have an iPad Pro, daylight and remarkable 2. iPad Pro is definitely the fastest. The daylight and rm2 are slightly slower and I do notice it, but they are definitely fast enough. The RM2 is the slowest and that is just e-ink physics at that point. I was pleasantly surprised by the speed of the daylight when I used it.
It's all lost on me although, since I don't really like pen input. I find the RM2 frustratingly slow for an epub e-ink reader. Compared to a kindle or others it's weirdly slow, even when pen input is fast. The daylight solves the outdoor computing problem for me.
There's a pretty strong variation in input lag between apps. Sketching in the Concepts app rather than the Notebook/Noteshelf app for example is essentially instant. So this is mostly an issue of third party apps having varying levels of good/bad implementation.
How well can you see the iPad Air when you're sitting outside? That's why I like my Daylight, for doing Duolingo (with handwriting to enhance memory formation) and reading Reddit/HN (in Firefox Mobile which doesn't have the problem you describe with Chrome) on my patio
I've also found that my eyes are physically repulsed by the brightness of OLED displays after using my Daylight for a few hours indoors with the brightness down. It is much easier on my eyes and much less addictive / attractive than my phone.
An iPad Air's screen is still going to hijack my dopamine system like my phone does. The Daylight doesn't. I bought a Daylight because I wanted a healthier device, and it delivered on THAT promise.
But you're right, if you only have OLED Tablet use-cases, it's not an OLED Tablet, so an OLED Tablet is better for those things.
From theverge review:
the fact that I can slide my fingernail between the display and the case and literally pry the thing apart
As long as it doesn't RUD, opening with no tools seems like a feature but the review reads like its a bug.
If the manufacture intends for you to separate the display from case, then it's a feature.
If it's not intended, it's a fit & finish issue.
I imagine it's not intended.
> As long as it doesn't RUD, opening with no tools seems like a feature but the review reads like its a bug.
What is RUD?
Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly, a rocketry euphemism for an explosion
That makes more sense. My brain immediately suggested R&D + FUD = Research, Uncertainty, and Doubt, which is a fair description of life in academia but didn't seem relevant here.
> I've found that writing on the screen makes me prefer paper; reading on the screen makes me prefer books.
I had the same experience with Remarkable. I've found I'm much happier now that I bought a color laser printer and just print things I want to read! Similarly, I take all my notes on paper and have a sheet feed scanner for digitization
The android experience is off putting, that said I haven’t put much time into customizing or playing with my dc1 yet.
I found the design poor - reminds me of a first gen iPad. Too much wasted real estate.
I need to spend more time with it, but I still prefer my iPad Pro.
Interesting; the reason I wanted one was specifically because I wanted to have an Android e-ink reader so that I could use the O'Reilly Learning app with an e-ink screen. The Kindle Fire screen is "fine", but the e-paper stuff always was nicer for me to read off of.
I can't read my own handwriting anymore, so "real" paper is out of the question for me.
Also keep in mind that the Daylight doesn't have an e-ink screen like a Kindle. It is instead a grayscale transflective LCD. That is why it is able to have a high refresh rate like other LCD panels.
I did not realize that. I don't think I want that then.
Maybe I should try out the remarkable.
I use a Boox Note 2 almost daily for reading and regularly with a bluetooth keyboard for writing. It has a stylus, and the OCR is good enough for even my terrible handwriting (I should have been a doctor apparently) and I use that to scribble in the margin of PDFs etc.
My setup uses Autosync [1] to synchronise a folder from my desktop to the device. On my desktop I have Zotero (a Citation library) and Calibre both configured to export to that folder (in subfolders). With two way sync my notes are back on my PC almost instantly which is fantastic.
> OCR is good enough for even my terrible handwriting
Challenge accepted! I can't even read my own handwriting anymore, I would be incredibly impressed if an OCR can.
It's sort of a feedback loop; my handwriting is bad, so I type everything, so I never use a pen, so I don't practice my handwriting, so my handwriting gets worse. As it stands, I don't think I've written anything with pen and paper (other than a signature) since ~2021?
I've thought about picking up something in the Boox series but they've always been just a bit too pricey for me to justify; I'm afraid it would be yet another tablet thing that I use for a week and then just ends up collecting dust under my bed (of which I have a bunch).
> I can't even read my own handwriting anymore, I would be incredibly impressed if an OCR can.
An online OCR system like this has more information than you do as it knows stroke order, direction, and possibly timing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are devices that can read writing the writer can't.
I'm not sure I'm there yet (giving it away) but similarly annoyed by some of its teething pains. For me it seems to do all the things, and it runs longer than my iPad pro does on a charge (and like the OP author I suspect that is entirely because I run the display as near 0 brightness)
I really appreciate using it as a writing device in portrait mode, something that I really wish the iPad pro could do with its "magic" keyboard. I continue to look for more intuitive drawing solutions.
I also agree with the author that Android has that 'dos' feel of poorly bodged together hardware specific drivers/stuff and OS stuff.
As a result it hasn't replaced my ReMarkable 2 like I thought it might, I'd really love the RM2 to have a higher refresh rate than it does alas.
Semi-related: I had a Remarkable 2 and the best part of it for me was the texture writing. I decided to use a Surface Book 3 but the writing isn't the same... probably will try one of those textured surface cover things.
E-ink is interesting as it's nice wrt long battery life but the slowness sucks too and this is not about the Android devices with an e-ink screen. RM2 you could program so that was cool.
>I decided to use a Surface Book 3 but the writing isn't the same... probably will try one of those textured surface cover things.
i totally recommend getting a textured screen cover if you can find one.
i had one for my SP7 and it made sketching and annotating dramatically more tolerable - even pleasant. i was concerned it'd degrade stylus nibs more quickly but it wasn't a problem. colors were naturally a hair less vivid but it was acceptable and a good tradeoff for less glare in general and honestly i liked how it looked - it felt less like i was looking at a screen, if you know what i mean. in hindsight i think it's crazy that they sell these tablets with untextured screens/nibs.
edit: this is off-topic but i enjoyed reading your bio. i hope you have a nice day.
Well, I'm quite happy with the Supernote Nomad, but will gladly take the DC-1 off your hands if you want to because I would love a screen with faster refresh to run Obsidian locally :)
Yeah; I was really excited about this, but then saw it ran android.
Hard pass. I have an android tablet laying around, and never use it.
A Linux version / polished installable rom would make it compelling for me, especially if it included stuff from the kindle jailbreak community. Other than that, the ability to ssh, a shell with apt or apk, running vs code, and a web browser would cover a big chunk of my daily driver requirements. Bonus points for docker.
I have yet to use one, but have you heard of the Pinenote?
Its a Debian Linux based e-ink tablet. It doesn’t look particularly premium, but it’s not android. There is a pressure sensitive stylus that comes with it as well.
have you found much use for termux? i use it for quite a bit, running python scripts, yt-dlp and ffmpeg stuff. neovim.
you cant run things like vscode but there is an app called andronix that lets you run a full linux os and then you remote into it from a browser. its probably clunky though
What do you assume that a non-apple tablet runs, if not Android. Why would running Android be a surprise to you?
If you decide to give it away, I will happily pay for shipping. I could use it as a PhD student!
I've had a DC-1 for several months now. My biggest fear is that the company won't make a second version. I think I can truthfully say this is the one digital device I've actually been excited to own!
I have two primary usecases - reading on the train and taking notes in meetings. On the first - being a full Android, I can use apps or a web browser, and it's extremely responsive and highly legible. On the notetaking side - hands down, the best experience I've had with a digital product - for comparison, I've got a Remarkable 2 tablet sitting on my desk, and by comparison, remarkable's writing delay is noticeably uncomfortable.
I wish they had an official cover (I've found an acceptable generic on amazon). For the retro-computing feel, there's definitely something surreal in watching a B&W movie on a B&W device.
I honestly don't miss the color spectrum, so unless you're doing some work that actually requires color, I would definitely recommend this device. Somehow, it gets the "less distraction" thing right. And the software support will improve with time.
I believe their first few Founder's Edition batches did ship with a cover, and a nicer sling.
One thing about the DC-1 that this piece doesn't mention is the graininess of the display. It's not resolution-related... on a pure white background the display looks slightly speckled, like it has some film grain. I find this impairs readability of small text. (Matte and nano texture displays on many devices often have some degree of graininess on pure white, but it's more prominent on the DC-1 than I'm used to.) Perhaps it's related to the Wacom layer rather than the RLCD tech itself, I'm not sure.
Sounds like nano texture from Apple. Much less reflective than standard glass, but with added graininess, which is clearly visible to me :(
The grain on the DC-1 is quite a bit more noticeable than the grain on Apple's nanotexture displays. I don't find the latter distracting, but I found that I couldn't really read PDFs with small text on the DC-1 because of the grain. (Some of that is probably resolution-related too, to be fair.)
Thank you for saving me a nice chunk of change by closing out my eternal debate about whether or not to pony up for a nano texture screen.
This topic is very subjective IMO.
Some love the glossy screens, others the matte ones. And this is really what it comes down to for me.
I would try getting a chance to view the difference in person before deciding.
Yes, I find that there are differences in eye strain between the regular and nanotexture displays, even in a dark room with no reflections. It's worth trying both. One interesting difference between the two that not a lot of people realize is that the light emitted by the regular screen is circularly polarized, while the nanotexture is largely non-polarized.
Can you explain more about what that means / share a link to further reading? Tried searching but couldn't find much online about the light polarization specifically, and am interested in the nanotexture for reducing eye strain.
There's some evidence that CPL emissive screens cause less eyestrain than linearly polarized emissive screens (e.g., https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9010255), although the evidence there is not wildly strong. If you have a pair of RealD 3-D glasses (CPL filters) and look at a nanotexture iPad, you'll see that the nanotex layer decoheres the polarization of the underlying display, which is more like how normal (reflective) paper behaves.
Very helpful, thank you!
Sure. I just wish I could buy both, test for a month or so and then keep the one I like more.
Visiting Apple Store every other day, when I was visiting the US did not help much. So I stayed with standard glass.
Indeed: only trying them both side by side at home would yield a useful conclusion. Trying to gauge which would be better for you from the Apple Store display would be about as useless as trying to decide which big TV to buy from Best Buy based on how they all look in the store, with settings completely other than those you'd use at home.
That's likely the textured layer for the pen feel/grippiness. It's fine on most e-ink devices I've tested.
I've got one coming my way hopefully in next 2 months..
I kind of see it similarly to this review - a new category of device and not quite a 1-1 replacement of anything I have.
I have reluctantly owned Kindles & iPads since v1 of each, and don't particularly like either.
For me the iPad is always the 2nd (or 3rd) best device - if I'm seated indoors at a table or sofa, a MacBook is better.. if I'm on the go, a big iPhone is better.. if I am doing book length reading, a kindle is better. I can go a week or three without picking up my iPad. I find the OS annoyingly close to being a proper mini MacOS that never quite gets close enough in terms of multitasking/etc. It almost would be better by not trying to do so many things.
That said I find Kindles to be the worst tech product I regularly use, hands down. It's good for reading books in bed, thats basically it. But its so much better at that, I use it daily.
All the notetaking/highlighting/sharing functionality is garbage. Attempts to download/purchase more books on it are clunky enough I just wait til I'm back at phone/desktop. It also has the most bizarre ad targeting showing me content I would never read despite having nearly 20 years of my reading history.
I've even tried the Remarkable (v1) for a couple years as a work note-taking device.
So I'm hoping the Daylight solves the "3rd device" issue a bit better, but tbd.
Light computing, mostly for reading, plus some light note taking, touch & keyboard, better battery life and a screen that works outdoors.
I may have misunderstood your comments on Kindles. How are they the worst tech product you use, if you also think they’re the best at their intended purpose? Do you mean that you still find e-ink technology lacking, but there is nothing better?
The hardware is mediocre, the OS is laggy, can't easily take notes / share interesting quotes, its slow enough trying to buy my next book I just go to sleep if I finish a book & bulk shop for books on phone/desktop in the morning.
I can't remember the last time they added a new feature that was useful. I used to actually read the newspaper on it but they killed it. They used to make a giant one which was kind of a cool idea, but they killed it. Etc..
But yes it's good for reading in bed. That is why I use it regularly and the only thing I use it for.
> They used to make a giant one which was kind of a cool idea, but they killed it.
Also I at this point I have a mental block on spending more than $250 for any Kindle after years of dealing with their mediocrity.
So I'd rather take a spin with a new device from a new company than hope this time after nearly 20 years Amazon really figured it out...
I feel the same about my Kindle... but also have yet to pull the trigger on anything else. I've eyed some Boox ones, they have a million options from Kindle to tablet formfactor, including color, and they run Android so easy to do newspapers, magazines, feeds, ..., but I also find it hard to justify when my Kindle still works kinda fine. Ugh
Indeed, I had a Kindle Oasis refurb model, and it appears they've now retired it. Best kindle for me, and at $200ish didn't need to be great tech.
I liked the form factor better than paper white, because the margin had space for your hand to not accidentally touch-advance the page, plus the physical page turn buttons.
So if my Oasis dies, I'm left with the $400 scribe that is a price point I care if its good, or $150 paperwhite which I already know I dislike the form factor!
Hence trying Daylight..
I had a similar adventure.
I ended up with a Meebook E-Reader P78 Pro. It is an android based e-reader with a stylus and note-taking capabilities. Even has the ability to enable Google Play Store.
I added Kindle, Library, and Audiobookshelf to mine, along with Obsidian and some note taking stuff. it works fairly well, nowhere near perfect, but its also much cheaper than the DC-1.
Maybe look into that also. There might be newer versions or alternatives. Maybe something from Boox
I'd be careful with boox, just had the display on my Palma break with no obvious cause as it was in a soft inner pocket. Screen wasn't broken, just the eink display underneath.
Just to add, I bought this primarily for Reading, and note taking second on occasion.
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It reassures me that going with an Onyx Boox Tab Pro was the better choice. Full e-ink, not e-Paper, but still can switch to a mode where you could, if you want, watch a movie. Backlight is not crazy orange, it's what you want (warmth controlled separately from brightness). Ignores hand when you use the stylus, or at least, uses hands gestures for different things than the stylus and I never had the issue. Bluetooth keyboard works OK.
And it's Android (that's a plus for me, you have good software variety), with Google Services.
I love my Boox (nova C color). Draw on it, write hundreds of pages of journals on it longhand, read essays, newspapers and comics and books on it daily. For the past couple years. I gave up other tablets once I got it.
What it is NOT good at is doom scrolling, social media, or video. The format and refresh rate actively discourage that... and also, the battery may go all day with wifi off, but it drains pretty quickly once you're online. It is definitely an offline device, with the full range of Android functionality (and amazing offline handwriting recognition).
I take it out to read and write for hours every evening, and don't carry anything else. Bar none the best device I've ever owned for mixing creative and literary pursuits and turning my back on the shittified internet.
They look like good products, but my daughter had a really bad experience with them - she bought one, it arrived with the screen broken, and they refused to accept that was possible and said she must have broken it and refused a refund.
Unfortunately Onyx Boox have used sockpuppets and other dirty tricks on Reddit[0] and elsewhere to harass and deter users reporting broken screens. Their international partners have webpages explaining how it's "impossible" that e-ink screens can be damaged or broken without you dropping or sitting on them[1] And in general the company is hostile to anyone with damaged devices or issues of other sorts.
Although no-one is perfect, I really like Supernote and their way of developing as much as possible in the open[2]. The devices are really great to use[3]
Throwing another vote out there for Supernote. Very responsive, particularly around handwriting - which feels flawless. Been a perfect device for me, but more limited than a Boox. That’s fine for my use-case, but still worth calling out.
Sounds like an easy thing to dispute through your credit card company.
Also check your card benefits. Mine has theft and damage coverage and I've used it to replace a phone I dropped.
What if they didn't buy it on a credit card? I think I've bought 6 or 7 things on a credit card my entire life. I don't like pointless debt.
If you're using a credit card for its benefits (like buyer protection, which I have several times over the years) and have the money to pay it off immediately, it's not pointless debt, but a net benefit to the purchaser.
> What if they didn't buy it on a credit card?
Then they have fewer options.
She was really busy and left it too late to go to the card company by the time she had finished arguing with them.
I'm also in the Onyx BOOX camp (Max Lumi, going on my fourth year, numerous previous mentions/discussions in my HN history). Most of the observations on the Daylight Computer, particularly about readability under direct sunlight (the exact opposite of all other portable devices I've used, save the similarly B&W LCD-based Palm Pilot ... oh, a quarter century ago now) really is quite nice.
Other features seem pretty comparable with the DC. I suspect DC's high-speed refresh beats E-ink, but that E-ink's persistence, resolution, and clarity are strong counterpoints.
The observations on B&W v. colour are interesting, and mostly match my own experience. Coding (in vim under Termux) takes me back to monochrome screen days (though those were largely green/amber rather than B&W), and the loss of colour syntax highlighting can be somewhat jarring (though I remember finding the garishness of it being initially offputting when I'd first begun using it). I find the Web much less distracting in B&W, and only rarely miss colour, though for some data presentation (e.g., graphs and charts) it can be conspicuous by its absence). I'd like to try a colour e-ink device at some point.
For a device that maximises portability, preserves battery life, functions spectacularly in all lighting conditions (though diffuse overhead lighting tends toward glare), and is principally aimed at reading / listening / notetaking, with light technical work (largely under Termux w/ a Bluetooth keyboard) I strongly recommend the form-factor, and would suggest exploring either e-ink or e-paper depending on specific preferences, the key distinction likely being the refresh/persistence aspect noted previously.
I personally am avoiding Onyx until they come into compliance with the GPL.
I looked at Boox devices, but they lag Android versions to the point where it becomes a security concern.
I treat mine (Max Lumi, about 3 years old now) as an insecure device. There are (very nearly) no account-based services on them (and occasional use of SSH roughly doubles that count), and that which I do use is to a pseudonymous service which ... I've soured on sufficiently that I use it little if any. The device is almost wholly dedicated to consumption, largely e-books, podcasts, and websites. That's a nonzero vulnerability surface, but it's pretty close to nil.
And for those purposes, the device is quite satisfactory.
My Boox is pretty crap. My use case is Libby for library books and the display refreshing and other things make it almost unusable. Feels super cheap, unsupported.
Wow. This is so different from my experience with my Boox. I like the add ons they made to improve the Android UI for e-ink purposes, and every weekly update makes it better. Feels extremely well supported to me.
I for one would love crazy orange :-) There are, almost, dozens of us!
Onyx offers that option, but does not mandate it.
Max the "warm" frontlight slider, min the "cold". Voila la orange!
About 9 months ago, they promised that they will unlock the bootloader so one can install and run linux on it [1]. Hoping this happens soon.
The problem is that in order to run linux you'll probably want a kernel with quite a few patches and their DTS, and I haven't found anything for this yet.
Android is almost linux so with a bit of effort it's probably not unreachable, but I don't quite have the time for this yet... If someone does it then Linux with an external keyboard would probably work for me as well, there was someone who did it with the remarkable (it's already linux but they ran standard X11 on it), but the refresh rate was a bit too sluggish, something like the daylight computer would probably do nicely!
I would buy one if this comes to fruition.
not an expert, but i think that’s already available?
Oh, interesting! I'll have to check into what the state of Linux on these are.
I really enjoy my DC-1 but after a quick skim, I didn't notice any mention of the screen's ability to scratch.
I took mine in a backpack up to my parents place and apparently something lightly caused a scratch on the screen so now I just have a permanent little gouge.
Thankfully I've learned to ignore it over time but yeah, don't assume it's as indestructible as a lot of screens.
The DC-1 does/did ship with a padded cover which makes me think it doubled as the engineering fix for when/if they realised that might be an issue.
Vast majority of e-ink devices have little to no scratch resistance and need covers. Are people so used to gorilla glass that they forget other displays exist now?
A rare exception is the BigME E-ink phones but those have glossy glass over the screens and a matte screen protector to combat the gloss.
>Are people so used to gorilla glass that they forget other displays exist now?
Yes? Phones have gotten incredibly scratch resistant over the years. It's kind of expected that portable devices will do a good job of this because they get moved a lot.
Not saying it's easy with e-ink and touch capabilities though, it may be very hard. However, I can see why someone would expect it to 'just work'.
I've been pretty unloving to my various Kobo's and Boox devices without any major issues so I guess I'm just not used to it
> scrolling, panning, videos, gifs. It all feels as it should
Very expensive right now, too much to impulse buy, and the OS is not what I want. I would like a chunky little laptop with this display tech.
(not mine) was just checking what became of them and this review hit home
I have no use for an android tablet like this, but as soon as they make a PC screen (either laptop or desktop) I'm pretty sure I'd buy one fast! Keep it up folks!
While I was looking up such screens, these also seem to sell "quick refresh" PC screens:
https://shop.dasung.com/
Just did a quick search on HN and while it did get posted recent ones didn't get many comments, not many users perhaps?
I'd be greedy and wish there was something in the middle (13 is tiny for desktop but there's no battery so it's not really laptop friendly; 25 is a bit too big for my desk), but perhaps...
The Dasung monitors are cool, but those are actual Eink, whereas the Daylight tablet is LCD, so you'll have a wildly different experience between the two.
There's a reflective lcd subreddit that discusses reflective lcd pc monitors, looks like at least one company is launching a commercial product soon.
Are you aware of any specific direct comparisons?
Video of same would be particularly illuminating, I think.
If it were some more reasonable spec than 24" 1920 x 1080 I would be far more interested.
It’s a hen and egg problem. There is little investment in the technology, because few people buy it.
That being said, Full HD at that size (and even at 27”) is still a fairly common resolution on the desktop.
It is still common, but there’s a reason that it only shows up on landfill-ready devices (unless you count high hz gaming monitors).
I quite like mine, but I haven't done any work work on it. No typing or anything. I've read a couple of books on it, I've read some manga (perfect match for the monochrome screen), and I've taken some notes on some papers that I'm working through. I'm impressed with the battery, and I've been using it every single day since I got it. Mindblowing? No. Just a nice reading experience. Perfect if you want something larger form-factor than the kindle with more apps to side-load, if that's your thing.
As for the UI, etc, it's just Android with a non-standard launcher. They didn't even write the launcher, it's a launcher you can get off the app store. It's pretty vanilla except for the gestures for back/home. Whether or not this bothers you is probably a function of how much you like or dislike a pretty vanilla Android experience.
I've had a DC-1 for a few months now and this review sums it up nicely. The one thing I'd say was missed is that you actually can assign actions to the extra physical buttons with apps like Key Mapper
author here- great to know, thanks!
Regarding the comment about using the laptop in a hammock… I really wish I could have some sort of keyboard that was “good for typing” but that I could just hold onto in my hands. Many times I would like to type something up, but don’t want a computer on my lap.
Just something shaped like some cylinders to grip yet somehow are able to piggyback on existing touch typing knowledge sounds cool to me (but might be unreasonably heavy or something)
Yes, my take on this has always been, "Trying to outbright the sun with a battery-powered device is _not_ a brilliant approach." which is why I've always preferred transflective displays (and despair of replacing my Fujitsu Stylistic ST-4110 which was one of my most favourite computers, and probably the longest-lived --- still boot it up occasionally to use a scanner, and I'd use it for more if an 800MHz Pentium could cope with today's JavaScript on today's Web...)
MacBook pro M4 with a low-glare display and 1600 nits iirc works OK outdoors but still doesn't get close to eink in my opinion.
Whatever happened to the transflective lcds that were popular in carputers in the 2000s? They seem to be a perfect fit for a tablet and I have been puzzled that no one has jumped on using them in one.
from the transflective wikipedia page [1]
"A transflective liquid-crystal display is a liquid-crystal display (LCD) with an optical layer that reflects and transmits light (transflective is a portmanteau of transmissive and reflective). Under bright illumination (e.g. when exposed to daylight) the display acts mainly as a reflective display with the contrast being constant with illuminance. However, under dim and dark ambient situations the light from a backlight is transmitted through the transflective layer to provide light for the display. The transflective layer is called a transflector. It is typically made from a sheet polymer. It is similar to a one-way mirror but is not specular."
LEDs replaced CCFL tubes in backlighting. LED was still too dark until iPhone 4S or 5, but once it became bright enough and automatic brightness control matured, it quickly eliminated needs for transflective displays.
Transflective displays are also generally "low quality" in eyes of regular consumers. That drives down margins and eliminate less flashy options.
The daylight computer is a transflective LCD with fancy marketing.
Thanks for pointing that out. I thought it was some sort of variation on an E-ink display because of the black and white limitation. Nothing about transflective tech limits it from full color other than price. I guess that leads me to an evolution of my question: Why are no* tablets using full color transflective displays?
*I did find the HannsNote2 [1] does, but it only came out last year, and this tech has been around for donkey's years.
> For some reason every bluetooth keyboard I have tried so far glitches every so often and sends double or triple keys or occasionally the same key a couple dozen times with no way to stop it from happening.
This would make the device unusable to me. I wonder if others have had the same issue? Fundamentally, I need typing to be reliable. I guess this probably doesn’t happen via USB keyboards?
I get this when using my Bose QC bluetooth headphones near my keyboard. Sometimes it doesn't happen much, sometimes it happens every half hour. It doesn't happen when I don't use the BT headphones. I wonder if this issue is something to do with interference or radio power or faulty bluetooth stacks.
bluetooth is a ghetto of a protocol. sad though, as the use case is well so damn useful.
That sounds to me like some kind of retransmission error - a packet with a keystroke is being sent but the ack is not received so another packet is sent? I know nothing at all about if/how bluetooth actually manages reliability though, so could be unlikely or totally impossible.
packets are sequenced, integrity checked and encrypted to prevent replay attacks so unlikely to be a simple "send packet again" issue.
More likely a key debounce issue or driver issue.
Sounds like rf interference from your computer or something. Try getting a 3-6’ USB extension cable, and plug a Bluetooth dongle into it, then route it away from your machine.
Thank you for writing this up, I'm glad I'm not the online one with the Android issues. Being able to put any software on it is nice, but it comes with a cost. The default Android jank along with the custom home screen makes the product difficult to use. I only wanted to read ebooks on the device but even that experience is not great and the reader app that comes with the device seems to be limited to pdfs. Additionally, there is 0 hand holding during set up. The packaging is top notch, but the QR code with instructions was hidden at the bottom under the device. I did not notice it until days later.
That being said, the screen technology is amazing and I hope they're able to continue the business. Unfortunately the bar for products is very high now but I think they have something here.
Random idea: could someone make a display like this for the Framework laptop?
Fantastic idea — I would be in the market for this, doubly so if it could be easily swapped with an OLED.
But that never turned into a product, and this display tech might be more suitable as response times would be better?
I have the Fintie case he mentioned and it does work very nicely.
I love my Daylight so far but I received it right at the end of the season that I would want to be working outside. Spring is just around the corner here in Georgia so I am looking forward to putting it to work in the wifi-enabled woods behind my barn office.
It's very good though and latency is good enough to watch Broodwar videos on YouTube and still enjoy the content (though of course the colors are off).
I have one and agree with the technical issues mentioned in this thread. This is my first experience with a writing tablet, although I have occasionally dabbled with an iPad with a stylus.
What draws me to use this device is that it creates a sense of "roominess," allowing me to lean back and consume, write, and engage in a non-aggressive way. This quality is something I miss in my other devices.
The monochrome display makes playing Wordle harder :).
> palm rejection while using the stylus
Do you mean that it doesn't sufficiently reject palm touch while writing with stylus? I'm a long-time Onyx BOOX user and hoping that DC-1 writing experience is as good or better.
rlcd display panels are coming this year. Looking foward to buy one.
That looks pretty interesting, I'd think a regular LCD would already be fully capable of working this way if you swapped the diffuser + backlight for a reflective white sheet? They are transparent after all.
That's very exciting! Do you have any more information on that?
Is it really computing if you’re just using it like a pad of paper? Is it worth all the noxious process to manufacture it?
I like a different tool as much as the next person, but I think before we jump to the most complicated to for the job we should align our priorities..
Since I couldn't find a link anywhere, available for preorder for US$729:
Do the orange buttons work for anyone? The Reader app mentions that they're supposed to be for sending feedback, but they've never done anything for me.
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Ultimately, the first line is really resonated with me:
"When I get to write or read on a screen that’s reflecting the sun back at me instead of needing to be shielded from it, I get a dose of this feeling that this is what all computing could feel like. I want so much more of this in my life."
I have the DC-1, and where I've used it in direct sunlight, it's a great feeling. However... it's rare that this matters. But... it's winter. And so I'm inside because it's f*king cold out. I'm holding onto hope that this will bring me outside to read and note take a bit more eventually.
My iPad is still king for my "tablet computing". Especially note taking, drawing, design tasks (like CAD), casual gaming and entertainment consumption. I don't see the DC-1 replacing my iPad use any time soon. The app ecosystem, screen, sound, etc, are just not good enough to replace my iPad. Frankly, I just don't see anything that can really compete with the iPad, which sucks, because I feel like Apple continues to underestimate what the iPad could be. (It should be more like a mac and not like a phone. The hardware can do this, the software can not.)
... but anyhow, the DC-1 makes me excited to be able to, say, go to the park and read and note a design doc. Etc. Like, this device could be a lifestyle changer... when it's nice out. Or it might be a device I read documents on and take notes on the iPad. This is a second use case I'm just starting to figure out.
So I'm going to keep onto mine, and I'm optimistic and excited. But it's early.
this is awesome, thanks for sharing
r/writerdeck
Every time I read something like this it strikes me as so incredibly odd that people are into sunlight.
For me, direct sunlight is a 100% negative experience. It’s physically dangerous to skin, generally unhealthy if you aren’t Vitamin D deficient, extremely bright, causes wild temperature flux throughout normal working hours, etc.
I have spent a lot of time and a fair bit of money making sure natural sunlight never reaches the places I regularly work and sleep. I would live deep underground if I could. The incessant changes in light, temperature, humidity (even indoors) are a constant annoyance that must be compensated for.
It’s a wonder to me that anyone enjoys such experiences.
Okay guys, who welcomed Nosferatu onto HN? I’ll get the garlic…
You do not have to be in direct sunlight to be in a place with that's sun lit.
Say I'm on my porch with a bright sun lit background, but not in the sun myself. I'd love to work there, but I cannot read my screen.
Sunlight is so wildly inconsistent, though. It changes temperature, angle, and intensity so fast, and it is far far too bright for the majority of the time it is available.
Electric light suffers from none of these problems.
Funny, I am exactly the opposite of you and find your post absolutely alien.
It's not about sitting directly in the sun, it's about sitting in well-lit, open environments. Normal laptop screens cannot handle that very well, and they cannot handle direct sunlight at all.
The ideal application for this technology is in a smart phone. That's the device that people use most out doors.
Also don't forget that there are a lot of people who work outdoors and need to check things and write things down when they're in the field.
Do you have anything as a backup to say its physically dangerous and generally unhealthy?
It's only unhealthy when the (1) the sun is out (no clouds), (2) the "shadows are short" (sun over 45° angle), (2) there's no (semi-)cover, and (3) you are in there already over ~15min for that day (this is different per skin type and tan-level).
Below that it's very healthy.
I prefer avoiding direct sunlight, but lounging outdoors in the shade is delightful.
I think you're misinformed. Sunlight has way more benefits than drawbacks.
Just feeling the warmth of the sun on your skin is a delight, it's also delightful to be outside (even if perhaps in a shadow or half-shadow) and read something.
No, the assumption that it is universally delightful for people is an incorrect one. The heating caused by the sun on my skin is not enjoyable at all.
I would remain indoors forever if it were possible. I find being outside to be just as archaic as swimming in the middle of the open ocean; unnecessary and uncomfortable.
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'Silo'
Some of us touch grass
dude, you definitely need to get outside more often...
I have one of these and I'm just about ready to give it away. The problem is it doesn't fit a use case that I don't have better solutions for. I've found that writing on the screen makes me prefer paper; reading on the screen makes me prefer books. I wanted to like the DC-1 but every time I use it something feels off. Maybe that's partly because I don't enjoy the Android experience.
I've written about this before, but I too gave up on my Daylight - even though I truly love what they are trying to accomplish.
I found it:
- oddly heavy, the Daylight is made of all plastic (body & screen) - yet it’s heavier than an iPad Air made from metal & glass.
- handwriting lag, the input lags when I use the pen is so much that it distracts me while writing a sentence. I have to concentrate to ensure it’s keeping up with each letter I write. No such lag exists with my iPad Air.
- no setup instructions or tutorial on its unique gestures. You boot it up and have to figure out how it works and getting it on WiFi
- display resolution is much worse than I was expecting.
- when using chrome, webpages render incredibly small. I’m having to constantly zoom in. There’s a setting in chrome about “desktop mode” but it made no difference.
And I also wasn’t expecting to have to sign up for a Google account to even get Daylight OS/software updates. (Maybe I don’t but that’s what the Google App Store made it seem like).
Wish I had read this review before I had bought it. https://www.theverge.com/2024/7/20/24201356/daylight-compute...
* Note: I truly love the idea of Daylight, and I hope they succeed. But in my mind, a considerable device improvement needs to be made to realize that vision.
Until then, I’ll revert back to using my iPad Air (and now with nano-texture coming more broadly across Apple lines, Daylight is going to have that much more to overcome - because Apple is also cheaper product).
> handwriting lag, the input lags when I use the pen is so much that it distracts me while writing a sentence
Oh, that's a deal-breaker for me.
I currently have a Remarkable 2, and the handwriting latency is imperceptible - it feels like I'm writing with a physical pen. However, the latency of doing anything except writing is very high - it takes almost a second to undo/redo or open the pen palette, for instance.
The advertised 60Hz display of the Daylight and the underlying Android platform (that makes it possible for me to write my own applications, something that is technically possible but difficult and unreliable on the RM2) made it sound like an upgrade, but if handwriting latency is bad enough that it doesn't feel like paper anymore, I think I'll stick with a combination of my RM2 and desktop.
Theoretically this is something fixable in software (in which case I'm sold), but from what I've heard about Android, it's very much not latency-optimized in either the video or audio space.
FWIW, I have both an RM2 and a DC1 and the handwriting lag feels similar to me on both (and quite perceptible on the RM2). YMMV.
Either your RM2 has something wrong with it, or you're (enviously) sensitive to latency. Both the marketing team[1] and independent testing[2] show that latency is under 25 ms.
That also doesn't seem consistent with GP post that "the input lags when I use the pen is so much that it distracts me while writing a sentence" which shouldn't be in the same category as 25ms.
[1] https://support.remarkable.com/s/article/What-s-the-differen...
[2] https://youtube.com/watch?v=g34SVxTjGIA&t=3348s
I have an iPad Pro, daylight and remarkable 2. iPad Pro is definitely the fastest. The daylight and rm2 are slightly slower and I do notice it, but they are definitely fast enough. The RM2 is the slowest and that is just e-ink physics at that point. I was pleasantly surprised by the speed of the daylight when I used it.
It's all lost on me although, since I don't really like pen input. I find the RM2 frustratingly slow for an epub e-ink reader. Compared to a kindle or others it's weirdly slow, even when pen input is fast. The daylight solves the outdoor computing problem for me.
There's a pretty strong variation in input lag between apps. Sketching in the Concepts app rather than the Notebook/Noteshelf app for example is essentially instant. So this is mostly an issue of third party apps having varying levels of good/bad implementation.
How well can you see the iPad Air when you're sitting outside? That's why I like my Daylight, for doing Duolingo (with handwriting to enhance memory formation) and reading Reddit/HN (in Firefox Mobile which doesn't have the problem you describe with Chrome) on my patio
I've also found that my eyes are physically repulsed by the brightness of OLED displays after using my Daylight for a few hours indoors with the brightness down. It is much easier on my eyes and much less addictive / attractive than my phone.
An iPad Air's screen is still going to hijack my dopamine system like my phone does. The Daylight doesn't. I bought a Daylight because I wanted a healthier device, and it delivered on THAT promise.
But you're right, if you only have OLED Tablet use-cases, it's not an OLED Tablet, so an OLED Tablet is better for those things.
From theverge review:
the fact that I can slide my fingernail between the display and the case and literally pry the thing apart
As long as it doesn't RUD, opening with no tools seems like a feature but the review reads like its a bug.
If the manufacture intends for you to separate the display from case, then it's a feature.
If it's not intended, it's a fit & finish issue.
I imagine it's not intended.
> As long as it doesn't RUD, opening with no tools seems like a feature but the review reads like its a bug.
What is RUD?
Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly, a rocketry euphemism for an explosion
That makes more sense. My brain immediately suggested R&D + FUD = Research, Uncertainty, and Doubt, which is a fair description of life in academia but didn't seem relevant here.
> I've found that writing on the screen makes me prefer paper; reading on the screen makes me prefer books.
I had the same experience with Remarkable. I've found I'm much happier now that I bought a color laser printer and just print things I want to read! Similarly, I take all my notes on paper and have a sheet feed scanner for digitization
The android experience is off putting, that said I haven’t put much time into customizing or playing with my dc1 yet.
I found the design poor - reminds me of a first gen iPad. Too much wasted real estate.
I need to spend more time with it, but I still prefer my iPad Pro.
Interesting; the reason I wanted one was specifically because I wanted to have an Android e-ink reader so that I could use the O'Reilly Learning app with an e-ink screen. The Kindle Fire screen is "fine", but the e-paper stuff always was nicer for me to read off of.
I can't read my own handwriting anymore, so "real" paper is out of the question for me.
Also keep in mind that the Daylight doesn't have an e-ink screen like a Kindle. It is instead a grayscale transflective LCD. That is why it is able to have a high refresh rate like other LCD panels.
I did not realize that. I don't think I want that then.
Maybe I should try out the remarkable.
I use a Boox Note 2 almost daily for reading and regularly with a bluetooth keyboard for writing. It has a stylus, and the OCR is good enough for even my terrible handwriting (I should have been a doctor apparently) and I use that to scribble in the margin of PDFs etc.
My setup uses Autosync [1] to synchronise a folder from my desktop to the device. On my desktop I have Zotero (a Citation library) and Calibre both configured to export to that folder (in subfolders). With two way sync my notes are back on my PC almost instantly which is fantastic.
I also run Readwise and Obsidian on the Boox.
1: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ttxapps.au...
> OCR is good enough for even my terrible handwriting
Challenge accepted! I can't even read my own handwriting anymore, I would be incredibly impressed if an OCR can.
It's sort of a feedback loop; my handwriting is bad, so I type everything, so I never use a pen, so I don't practice my handwriting, so my handwriting gets worse. As it stands, I don't think I've written anything with pen and paper (other than a signature) since ~2021?
I've thought about picking up something in the Boox series but they've always been just a bit too pricey for me to justify; I'm afraid it would be yet another tablet thing that I use for a week and then just ends up collecting dust under my bed (of which I have a bunch).
> I can't even read my own handwriting anymore, I would be incredibly impressed if an OCR can.
An online OCR system like this has more information than you do as it knows stroke order, direction, and possibly timing. I wouldn't be surprised if there are devices that can read writing the writer can't.
I'm not sure I'm there yet (giving it away) but similarly annoyed by some of its teething pains. For me it seems to do all the things, and it runs longer than my iPad pro does on a charge (and like the OP author I suspect that is entirely because I run the display as near 0 brightness)
I really appreciate using it as a writing device in portrait mode, something that I really wish the iPad pro could do with its "magic" keyboard. I continue to look for more intuitive drawing solutions.
I also agree with the author that Android has that 'dos' feel of poorly bodged together hardware specific drivers/stuff and OS stuff.
As a result it hasn't replaced my ReMarkable 2 like I thought it might, I'd really love the RM2 to have a higher refresh rate than it does alas.
Semi-related: I had a Remarkable 2 and the best part of it for me was the texture writing. I decided to use a Surface Book 3 but the writing isn't the same... probably will try one of those textured surface cover things.
E-ink is interesting as it's nice wrt long battery life but the slowness sucks too and this is not about the Android devices with an e-ink screen. RM2 you could program so that was cool.
>I decided to use a Surface Book 3 but the writing isn't the same... probably will try one of those textured surface cover things.
i totally recommend getting a textured screen cover if you can find one.
i had one for my SP7 and it made sketching and annotating dramatically more tolerable - even pleasant. i was concerned it'd degrade stylus nibs more quickly but it wasn't a problem. colors were naturally a hair less vivid but it was acceptable and a good tradeoff for less glare in general and honestly i liked how it looked - it felt less like i was looking at a screen, if you know what i mean. in hindsight i think it's crazy that they sell these tablets with untextured screens/nibs.
edit: this is off-topic but i enjoyed reading your bio. i hope you have a nice day.
Well, I'm quite happy with the Supernote Nomad, but will gladly take the DC-1 off your hands if you want to because I would love a screen with faster refresh to run Obsidian locally :)
Yeah; I was really excited about this, but then saw it ran android.
Hard pass. I have an android tablet laying around, and never use it.
A Linux version / polished installable rom would make it compelling for me, especially if it included stuff from the kindle jailbreak community. Other than that, the ability to ssh, a shell with apt or apk, running vs code, and a web browser would cover a big chunk of my daily driver requirements. Bonus points for docker.
I have yet to use one, but have you heard of the Pinenote?
Its a Debian Linux based e-ink tablet. It doesn’t look particularly premium, but it’s not android. There is a pressure sensitive stylus that comes with it as well.
https://pine64.org/devices/pinenote/
Not many reviews out there but here is a video of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3trcI7MK4U
have you found much use for termux? i use it for quite a bit, running python scripts, yt-dlp and ffmpeg stuff. neovim.
you cant run things like vscode but there is an app called andronix that lets you run a full linux os and then you remote into it from a browser. its probably clunky though
What do you assume that a non-apple tablet runs, if not Android. Why would running Android be a surprise to you?
If you decide to give it away, I will happily pay for shipping. I could use it as a PhD student!
I've had a DC-1 for several months now. My biggest fear is that the company won't make a second version. I think I can truthfully say this is the one digital device I've actually been excited to own!
I have two primary usecases - reading on the train and taking notes in meetings. On the first - being a full Android, I can use apps or a web browser, and it's extremely responsive and highly legible. On the notetaking side - hands down, the best experience I've had with a digital product - for comparison, I've got a Remarkable 2 tablet sitting on my desk, and by comparison, remarkable's writing delay is noticeably uncomfortable.
I wish they had an official cover (I've found an acceptable generic on amazon). For the retro-computing feel, there's definitely something surreal in watching a B&W movie on a B&W device.
I honestly don't miss the color spectrum, so unless you're doing some work that actually requires color, I would definitely recommend this device. Somehow, it gets the "less distraction" thing right. And the software support will improve with time.
I believe their first few Founder's Edition batches did ship with a cover, and a nicer sling.
One thing about the DC-1 that this piece doesn't mention is the graininess of the display. It's not resolution-related... on a pure white background the display looks slightly speckled, like it has some film grain. I find this impairs readability of small text. (Matte and nano texture displays on many devices often have some degree of graininess on pure white, but it's more prominent on the DC-1 than I'm used to.) Perhaps it's related to the Wacom layer rather than the RLCD tech itself, I'm not sure.
Sounds like nano texture from Apple. Much less reflective than standard glass, but with added graininess, which is clearly visible to me :(
The grain on the DC-1 is quite a bit more noticeable than the grain on Apple's nanotexture displays. I don't find the latter distracting, but I found that I couldn't really read PDFs with small text on the DC-1 because of the grain. (Some of that is probably resolution-related too, to be fair.)
Thank you for saving me a nice chunk of change by closing out my eternal debate about whether or not to pony up for a nano texture screen.
This topic is very subjective IMO.
Some love the glossy screens, others the matte ones. And this is really what it comes down to for me.
I would try getting a chance to view the difference in person before deciding.
Yes, I find that there are differences in eye strain between the regular and nanotexture displays, even in a dark room with no reflections. It's worth trying both. One interesting difference between the two that not a lot of people realize is that the light emitted by the regular screen is circularly polarized, while the nanotexture is largely non-polarized.
Can you explain more about what that means / share a link to further reading? Tried searching but couldn't find much online about the light polarization specifically, and am interested in the nanotexture for reducing eye strain.
There's some evidence that CPL emissive screens cause less eyestrain than linearly polarized emissive screens (e.g., https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9010255), although the evidence there is not wildly strong. If you have a pair of RealD 3-D glasses (CPL filters) and look at a nanotexture iPad, you'll see that the nanotex layer decoheres the polarization of the underlying display, which is more like how normal (reflective) paper behaves.
Very helpful, thank you!
Sure. I just wish I could buy both, test for a month or so and then keep the one I like more.
Visiting Apple Store every other day, when I was visiting the US did not help much. So I stayed with standard glass.
Indeed: only trying them both side by side at home would yield a useful conclusion. Trying to gauge which would be better for you from the Apple Store display would be about as useless as trying to decide which big TV to buy from Best Buy based on how they all look in the store, with settings completely other than those you'd use at home.
That's likely the textured layer for the pen feel/grippiness. It's fine on most e-ink devices I've tested.
I've got one coming my way hopefully in next 2 months..
I kind of see it similarly to this review - a new category of device and not quite a 1-1 replacement of anything I have.
I have reluctantly owned Kindles & iPads since v1 of each, and don't particularly like either.
For me the iPad is always the 2nd (or 3rd) best device - if I'm seated indoors at a table or sofa, a MacBook is better.. if I'm on the go, a big iPhone is better.. if I am doing book length reading, a kindle is better. I can go a week or three without picking up my iPad. I find the OS annoyingly close to being a proper mini MacOS that never quite gets close enough in terms of multitasking/etc. It almost would be better by not trying to do so many things.
That said I find Kindles to be the worst tech product I regularly use, hands down. It's good for reading books in bed, thats basically it. But its so much better at that, I use it daily.
All the notetaking/highlighting/sharing functionality is garbage. Attempts to download/purchase more books on it are clunky enough I just wait til I'm back at phone/desktop. It also has the most bizarre ad targeting showing me content I would never read despite having nearly 20 years of my reading history.
I've even tried the Remarkable (v1) for a couple years as a work note-taking device.
So I'm hoping the Daylight solves the "3rd device" issue a bit better, but tbd. Light computing, mostly for reading, plus some light note taking, touch & keyboard, better battery life and a screen that works outdoors.
I may have misunderstood your comments on Kindles. How are they the worst tech product you use, if you also think they’re the best at their intended purpose? Do you mean that you still find e-ink technology lacking, but there is nothing better?
The hardware is mediocre, the OS is laggy, can't easily take notes / share interesting quotes, its slow enough trying to buy my next book I just go to sleep if I finish a book & bulk shop for books on phone/desktop in the morning.
I can't remember the last time they added a new feature that was useful. I used to actually read the newspaper on it but they killed it. They used to make a giant one which was kind of a cool idea, but they killed it. Etc..
But yes it's good for reading in bed. That is why I use it regularly and the only thing I use it for.
> They used to make a giant one which was kind of a cool idea, but they killed it.
They have a new(er) big one, the scribe
Yeah fair point, though there was a 5+ year period without the big screen model. Also the scribe apparently is fairly mediocre - https://www.theverge.com/2024/12/28/24328287/amazon-kindle-s...
Also I at this point I have a mental block on spending more than $250 for any Kindle after years of dealing with their mediocrity.
So I'd rather take a spin with a new device from a new company than hope this time after nearly 20 years Amazon really figured it out...
I feel the same about my Kindle... but also have yet to pull the trigger on anything else. I've eyed some Boox ones, they have a million options from Kindle to tablet formfactor, including color, and they run Android so easy to do newspapers, magazines, feeds, ..., but I also find it hard to justify when my Kindle still works kinda fine. Ugh
Indeed, I had a Kindle Oasis refurb model, and it appears they've now retired it. Best kindle for me, and at $200ish didn't need to be great tech.
I liked the form factor better than paper white, because the margin had space for your hand to not accidentally touch-advance the page, plus the physical page turn buttons.
So if my Oasis dies, I'm left with the $400 scribe that is a price point I care if its good, or $150 paperwhite which I already know I dislike the form factor!
Hence trying Daylight..
I had a similar adventure.
I ended up with a Meebook E-Reader P78 Pro. It is an android based e-reader with a stylus and note-taking capabilities. Even has the ability to enable Google Play Store.
I added Kindle, Library, and Audiobookshelf to mine, along with Obsidian and some note taking stuff. it works fairly well, nowhere near perfect, but its also much cheaper than the DC-1.
Maybe look into that also. There might be newer versions or alternatives. Maybe something from Boox
I'd be careful with boox, just had the display on my Palma break with no obvious cause as it was in a soft inner pocket. Screen wasn't broken, just the eink display underneath.
Just to add, I bought this primarily for Reading, and note taking second on occasion.
It reassures me that going with an Onyx Boox Tab Pro was the better choice. Full e-ink, not e-Paper, but still can switch to a mode where you could, if you want, watch a movie. Backlight is not crazy orange, it's what you want (warmth controlled separately from brightness). Ignores hand when you use the stylus, or at least, uses hands gestures for different things than the stylus and I never had the issue. Bluetooth keyboard works OK. And it's Android (that's a plus for me, you have good software variety), with Google Services.
I love my Boox (nova C color). Draw on it, write hundreds of pages of journals on it longhand, read essays, newspapers and comics and books on it daily. For the past couple years. I gave up other tablets once I got it.
What it is NOT good at is doom scrolling, social media, or video. The format and refresh rate actively discourage that... and also, the battery may go all day with wifi off, but it drains pretty quickly once you're online. It is definitely an offline device, with the full range of Android functionality (and amazing offline handwriting recognition).
I take it out to read and write for hours every evening, and don't carry anything else. Bar none the best device I've ever owned for mixing creative and literary pursuits and turning my back on the shittified internet.
They look like good products, but my daughter had a really bad experience with them - she bought one, it arrived with the screen broken, and they refused to accept that was possible and said she must have broken it and refused a refund.
Unfortunately Onyx Boox have used sockpuppets and other dirty tricks on Reddit[0] and elsewhere to harass and deter users reporting broken screens. Their international partners have webpages explaining how it's "impossible" that e-ink screens can be damaged or broken without you dropping or sitting on them[1] And in general the company is hostile to anyone with damaged devices or issues of other sorts.
Although no-one is perfect, I really like Supernote and their way of developing as much as possible in the open[2]. The devices are really great to use[3]
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/Onyx_Boox/comments/19czc16/a_genera...
[1] https://einktab.ca/dealing-with-a-broken-e-ink-screen-what-y...
[2] https://trello.com/b/l0COP24j/supernote-a5-x-a6-x-nomad-soft...
[3] https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2025/01/18/2335
Throwing another vote out there for Supernote. Very responsive, particularly around handwriting - which feels flawless. Been a perfect device for me, but more limited than a Boox. That’s fine for my use-case, but still worth calling out.
Sounds like an easy thing to dispute through your credit card company.
Also check your card benefits. Mine has theft and damage coverage and I've used it to replace a phone I dropped.
What if they didn't buy it on a credit card? I think I've bought 6 or 7 things on a credit card my entire life. I don't like pointless debt.
If you're using a credit card for its benefits (like buyer protection, which I have several times over the years) and have the money to pay it off immediately, it's not pointless debt, but a net benefit to the purchaser.
> What if they didn't buy it on a credit card?
Then they have fewer options.
She was really busy and left it too late to go to the card company by the time she had finished arguing with them.
I'm also in the Onyx BOOX camp (Max Lumi, going on my fourth year, numerous previous mentions/discussions in my HN history). Most of the observations on the Daylight Computer, particularly about readability under direct sunlight (the exact opposite of all other portable devices I've used, save the similarly B&W LCD-based Palm Pilot ... oh, a quarter century ago now) really is quite nice.
Other features seem pretty comparable with the DC. I suspect DC's high-speed refresh beats E-ink, but that E-ink's persistence, resolution, and clarity are strong counterpoints.
The observations on B&W v. colour are interesting, and mostly match my own experience. Coding (in vim under Termux) takes me back to monochrome screen days (though those were largely green/amber rather than B&W), and the loss of colour syntax highlighting can be somewhat jarring (though I remember finding the garishness of it being initially offputting when I'd first begun using it). I find the Web much less distracting in B&W, and only rarely miss colour, though for some data presentation (e.g., graphs and charts) it can be conspicuous by its absence). I'd like to try a colour e-ink device at some point.
For a device that maximises portability, preserves battery life, functions spectacularly in all lighting conditions (though diffuse overhead lighting tends toward glare), and is principally aimed at reading / listening / notetaking, with light technical work (largely under Termux w/ a Bluetooth keyboard) I strongly recommend the form-factor, and would suggest exploring either e-ink or e-paper depending on specific preferences, the key distinction likely being the refresh/persistence aspect noted previously.
I personally am avoiding Onyx until they come into compliance with the GPL.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735962
I looked at Boox devices, but they lag Android versions to the point where it becomes a security concern.
I treat mine (Max Lumi, about 3 years old now) as an insecure device. There are (very nearly) no account-based services on them (and occasional use of SSH roughly doubles that count), and that which I do use is to a pseudonymous service which ... I've soured on sufficiently that I use it little if any. The device is almost wholly dedicated to consumption, largely e-books, podcasts, and websites. That's a nonzero vulnerability surface, but it's pretty close to nil.
And for those purposes, the device is quite satisfactory.
My Boox is pretty crap. My use case is Libby for library books and the display refreshing and other things make it almost unusable. Feels super cheap, unsupported.
Wow. This is so different from my experience with my Boox. I like the add ons they made to improve the Android UI for e-ink purposes, and every weekly update makes it better. Feels extremely well supported to me.
I for one would love crazy orange :-) There are, almost, dozens of us!
Onyx offers that option, but does not mandate it.
Max the "warm" frontlight slider, min the "cold". Voila la orange!
About 9 months ago, they promised that they will unlock the bootloader so one can install and run linux on it [1]. Hoping this happens soon.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40459958
Unlocking the bootloader by itself is allowed apparently: https://www.daylighthacker.wiki/unlock
The problem is that in order to run linux you'll probably want a kernel with quite a few patches and their DTS, and I haven't found anything for this yet. Android is almost linux so with a bit of effort it's probably not unreachable, but I don't quite have the time for this yet... If someone does it then Linux with an external keyboard would probably work for me as well, there was someone who did it with the remarkable (it's already linux but they ran standard X11 on it), but the refresh rate was a bit too sluggish, something like the daylight computer would probably do nicely!
I would buy one if this comes to fruition.
not an expert, but i think that’s already available?
https://www.daylighthacker.wiki/unlock
Oh, interesting! I'll have to check into what the state of Linux on these are.
I really enjoy my DC-1 but after a quick skim, I didn't notice any mention of the screen's ability to scratch.
I took mine in a backpack up to my parents place and apparently something lightly caused a scratch on the screen so now I just have a permanent little gouge.
Thankfully I've learned to ignore it over time but yeah, don't assume it's as indestructible as a lot of screens.
The DC-1 does/did ship with a padded cover which makes me think it doubled as the engineering fix for when/if they realised that might be an issue.
Vast majority of e-ink devices have little to no scratch resistance and need covers. Are people so used to gorilla glass that they forget other displays exist now?
A rare exception is the BigME E-ink phones but those have glossy glass over the screens and a matte screen protector to combat the gloss.
>Are people so used to gorilla glass that they forget other displays exist now?
Yes? Phones have gotten incredibly scratch resistant over the years. It's kind of expected that portable devices will do a good job of this because they get moved a lot.
Not saying it's easy with e-ink and touch capabilities though, it may be very hard. However, I can see why someone would expect it to 'just work'.
I've been pretty unloving to my various Kobo's and Boox devices without any major issues so I guess I'm just not used to it
> scrolling, panning, videos, gifs. It all feels as it should
Is it really that good?
Okay, I found a video... Wow! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHeIw9rXzUQ
Very expensive right now, too much to impulse buy, and the OS is not what I want. I would like a chunky little laptop with this display tech.
(not mine) was just checking what became of them and this review hit home
I have no use for an android tablet like this, but as soon as they make a PC screen (either laptop or desktop) I'm pretty sure I'd buy one fast! Keep it up folks!
While I was looking up such screens, these also seem to sell "quick refresh" PC screens: https://shop.dasung.com/
Just did a quick search on HN and while it did get posted recent ones didn't get many comments, not many users perhaps?
I'd be greedy and wish there was something in the middle (13 is tiny for desktop but there's no battery so it's not really laptop friendly; 25 is a bit too big for my desk), but perhaps...
The Dasung monitors are cool, but those are actual Eink, whereas the Daylight tablet is LCD, so you'll have a wildly different experience between the two.
There's a reflective lcd subreddit that discusses reflective lcd pc monitors, looks like at least one company is launching a commercial product soon.
Are you aware of any specific direct comparisons?
Video of same would be particularly illuminating, I think.
I really hope to Modos e-ink display works out - https://www.crowdsupply.com/modos-tech/modos-paper-monitor
They have their own FPGA based controller to enable much higher refresh rates and lower latency.
I turned my Daylight into a PC screen using this app, which worked like a charm: https://superdisplay.app/
That only works with Windows?
There seem to be equivalent for linux (not tested) https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/use-tablet-or-phone-seco...
That's an interesting idea! I'm a bit wary of latency if this all goes over wifi, but probably worth a try.
There is https://eazeye.com/.
If it were some more reasonable spec than 24" 1920 x 1080 I would be far more interested.
It’s a hen and egg problem. There is little investment in the technology, because few people buy it.
That being said, Full HD at that size (and even at 27”) is still a fairly common resolution on the desktop.
It is still common, but there’s a reason that it only shows up on landfill-ready devices (unless you count high hz gaming monitors).
I quite like mine, but I haven't done any work work on it. No typing or anything. I've read a couple of books on it, I've read some manga (perfect match for the monochrome screen), and I've taken some notes on some papers that I'm working through. I'm impressed with the battery, and I've been using it every single day since I got it. Mindblowing? No. Just a nice reading experience. Perfect if you want something larger form-factor than the kindle with more apps to side-load, if that's your thing.
As for the UI, etc, it's just Android with a non-standard launcher. They didn't even write the launcher, it's a launcher you can get off the app store. It's pretty vanilla except for the gestures for back/home. Whether or not this bothers you is probably a function of how much you like or dislike a pretty vanilla Android experience.
On Onyx it's possible to swap in other-than-stock launchers, such as Nova (though that's apparently ceased further development: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41205497>).
I've had a DC-1 for a few months now and this review sums it up nicely. The one thing I'd say was missed is that you actually can assign actions to the extra physical buttons with apps like Key Mapper
author here- great to know, thanks!
Regarding the comment about using the laptop in a hammock… I really wish I could have some sort of keyboard that was “good for typing” but that I could just hold onto in my hands. Many times I would like to type something up, but don’t want a computer on my lap.
Just something shaped like some cylinders to grip yet somehow are able to piggyback on existing touch typing knowledge sounds cool to me (but might be unreasonably heavy or something)
I’ve never seen one that’s “good for typing” but:
TapStrap 2: https://www.tapwithus.com/product/tap-strap-2/
The ancient Twiddler2 wearable chording keyboard: https://spectrum.ieee.org/media-library/the-twiddler-chorded...
The never productised Senseboard: https://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/virtuella-tangenter-gor-nytt...
The never productised DataEgg chording: https://www.friedmanarchives.com/dataegg/
I've got an Alphagrip that's pretty good but I ended losing my speed with it when Swype touchscreens came out and I was faster with them.
https://www.alphagrip.com/
I've seen the alphagrip, but is it an easy thing to get used to? Like does it kind of map similar fingers to similar buttons?
From the picture, it has the low-contrast look of an older E-ink display. Here's a higher-contrast E-ink display.[1]
There are also emissive display laptops brighter than 1000 nits, which is about where they become sunlight-readable. Battery life might be a problem.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/GKVM94N1F6E
The lower contrast is because it's not e-ink (with the very slow refresh times that implies). It's something more like an LCD.
For values of "something like" strongly approaching "actually is a transflective LCD".
<https://www.androidpolice.com/origins-daylight-dc-1-with-cre...>
Yes, my take on this has always been, "Trying to outbright the sun with a battery-powered device is _not_ a brilliant approach." which is why I've always preferred transflective displays (and despair of replacing my Fujitsu Stylistic ST-4110 which was one of my most favourite computers, and probably the longest-lived --- still boot it up occasionally to use a scanner, and I'd use it for more if an 800MHz Pentium could cope with today's JavaScript on today's Web...)
MacBook pro M4 with a low-glare display and 1600 nits iirc works OK outdoors but still doesn't get close to eink in my opinion.
Whatever happened to the transflective lcds that were popular in carputers in the 2000s? They seem to be a perfect fit for a tablet and I have been puzzled that no one has jumped on using them in one.
from the transflective wikipedia page [1]
"A transflective liquid-crystal display is a liquid-crystal display (LCD) with an optical layer that reflects and transmits light (transflective is a portmanteau of transmissive and reflective). Under bright illumination (e.g. when exposed to daylight) the display acts mainly as a reflective display with the contrast being constant with illuminance. However, under dim and dark ambient situations the light from a backlight is transmitted through the transflective layer to provide light for the display. The transflective layer is called a transflector. It is typically made from a sheet polymer. It is similar to a one-way mirror but is not specular."
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_d...
LEDs replaced CCFL tubes in backlighting. LED was still too dark until iPhone 4S or 5, but once it became bright enough and automatic brightness control matured, it quickly eliminated needs for transflective displays.
Transflective displays are also generally "low quality" in eyes of regular consumers. That drives down margins and eliminate less flashy options.
The daylight computer is a transflective LCD with fancy marketing.
Thanks for pointing that out. I thought it was some sort of variation on an E-ink display because of the black and white limitation. Nothing about transflective tech limits it from full color other than price. I guess that leads me to an evolution of my question: Why are no* tablets using full color transflective displays?
*I did find the HannsNote2 [1] does, but it only came out last year, and this tech has been around for donkey's years.
[1] https://www.hannspree.com/product/hannsnote2
They don't showroom well, so were discontinued outside of nautical usage and special-purpose outdoor devices.
Unfortunate, my Stylistic Fujitsu ST-4110 w/ transflective display was one of my favourite devices ever.
There is https://eazeye.com/.
> For some reason every bluetooth keyboard I have tried so far glitches every so often and sends double or triple keys or occasionally the same key a couple dozen times with no way to stop it from happening.
This would make the device unusable to me. I wonder if others have had the same issue? Fundamentally, I need typing to be reliable. I guess this probably doesn’t happen via USB keyboards?
I get this when using my Bose QC bluetooth headphones near my keyboard. Sometimes it doesn't happen much, sometimes it happens every half hour. It doesn't happen when I don't use the BT headphones. I wonder if this issue is something to do with interference or radio power or faulty bluetooth stacks.
bluetooth is a ghetto of a protocol. sad though, as the use case is well so damn useful.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22904442
That sounds to me like some kind of retransmission error - a packet with a keystroke is being sent but the ack is not received so another packet is sent? I know nothing at all about if/how bluetooth actually manages reliability though, so could be unlikely or totally impossible.
packets are sequenced, integrity checked and encrypted to prevent replay attacks so unlikely to be a simple "send packet again" issue. More likely a key debounce issue or driver issue.
Sounds like rf interference from your computer or something. Try getting a 3-6’ USB extension cable, and plug a Bluetooth dongle into it, then route it away from your machine.
Thank you for writing this up, I'm glad I'm not the online one with the Android issues. Being able to put any software on it is nice, but it comes with a cost. The default Android jank along with the custom home screen makes the product difficult to use. I only wanted to read ebooks on the device but even that experience is not great and the reader app that comes with the device seems to be limited to pdfs. Additionally, there is 0 hand holding during set up. The packaging is top notch, but the QR code with instructions was hidden at the bottom under the device. I did not notice it until days later.
That being said, the screen technology is amazing and I hope they're able to continue the business. Unfortunately the bar for products is very high now but I think they have something here.
Random idea: could someone make a display like this for the Framework laptop?
Fantastic idea — I would be in the market for this, doubly so if it could be easily swapped with an OLED.
I looked it up after and it looks like someone already had a similar idea, I'm pretty sure I've seen this before which is probably where I got the idea from: https://x.com/zephray_wenting/status/1535041457035280392
But that never turned into a product, and this display tech might be more suitable as response times would be better?
I have the Fintie case he mentioned and it does work very nicely.
I love my Daylight so far but I received it right at the end of the season that I would want to be working outside. Spring is just around the corner here in Georgia so I am looking forward to putting it to work in the wifi-enabled woods behind my barn office.
It's very good though and latency is good enough to watch Broodwar videos on YouTube and still enjoy the content (though of course the colors are off).
I have one and agree with the technical issues mentioned in this thread. This is my first experience with a writing tablet, although I have occasionally dabbled with an iPad with a stylus.
What draws me to use this device is that it creates a sense of "roominess," allowing me to lean back and consume, write, and engage in a non-aggressive way. This quality is something I miss in my other devices.
The monochrome display makes playing Wordle harder :).
> palm rejection while using the stylus
Do you mean that it doesn't sufficiently reject palm touch while writing with stylus? I'm a long-time Onyx BOOX user and hoping that DC-1 writing experience is as good or better.
rlcd display panels are coming this year. Looking foward to buy one.
That looks pretty interesting, I'd think a regular LCD would already be fully capable of working this way if you swapped the diffuser + backlight for a reflective white sheet? They are transparent after all.
That's very exciting! Do you have any more information on that?
Is it really computing if you’re just using it like a pad of paper? Is it worth all the noxious process to manufacture it?
I like a different tool as much as the next person, but I think before we jump to the most complicated to for the job we should align our priorities..
Since I couldn't find a link anywhere, available for preorder for US$729:
https://daylightcomputer.com/
Do the orange buttons work for anyone? The Reader app mentions that they're supposed to be for sending feedback, but they've never done anything for me.
Ultimately, the first line is really resonated with me:
"When I get to write or read on a screen that’s reflecting the sun back at me instead of needing to be shielded from it, I get a dose of this feeling that this is what all computing could feel like. I want so much more of this in my life."
I have the DC-1, and where I've used it in direct sunlight, it's a great feeling. However... it's rare that this matters. But... it's winter. And so I'm inside because it's f*king cold out. I'm holding onto hope that this will bring me outside to read and note take a bit more eventually.
My iPad is still king for my "tablet computing". Especially note taking, drawing, design tasks (like CAD), casual gaming and entertainment consumption. I don't see the DC-1 replacing my iPad use any time soon. The app ecosystem, screen, sound, etc, are just not good enough to replace my iPad. Frankly, I just don't see anything that can really compete with the iPad, which sucks, because I feel like Apple continues to underestimate what the iPad could be. (It should be more like a mac and not like a phone. The hardware can do this, the software can not.)
... but anyhow, the DC-1 makes me excited to be able to, say, go to the park and read and note a design doc. Etc. Like, this device could be a lifestyle changer... when it's nice out. Or it might be a device I read documents on and take notes on the iPad. This is a second use case I'm just starting to figure out.
So I'm going to keep onto mine, and I'm optimistic and excited. But it's early.
this is awesome, thanks for sharing
r/writerdeck
Every time I read something like this it strikes me as so incredibly odd that people are into sunlight.
For me, direct sunlight is a 100% negative experience. It’s physically dangerous to skin, generally unhealthy if you aren’t Vitamin D deficient, extremely bright, causes wild temperature flux throughout normal working hours, etc.
I have spent a lot of time and a fair bit of money making sure natural sunlight never reaches the places I regularly work and sleep. I would live deep underground if I could. The incessant changes in light, temperature, humidity (even indoors) are a constant annoyance that must be compensated for.
It’s a wonder to me that anyone enjoys such experiences.
Okay guys, who welcomed Nosferatu onto HN? I’ll get the garlic…
Are you a vampire?
Insufficient Sun Exposure Has Become a Real Public Health Problem https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7400257/
You do not have to be in direct sunlight to be in a place with that's sun lit.
Say I'm on my porch with a bright sun lit background, but not in the sun myself. I'd love to work there, but I cannot read my screen.
Sunlight is so wildly inconsistent, though. It changes temperature, angle, and intensity so fast, and it is far far too bright for the majority of the time it is available.
Electric light suffers from none of these problems.
Funny, I am exactly the opposite of you and find your post absolutely alien.
It's not about sitting directly in the sun, it's about sitting in well-lit, open environments. Normal laptop screens cannot handle that very well, and they cannot handle direct sunlight at all.
The ideal application for this technology is in a smart phone. That's the device that people use most out doors.
Also don't forget that there are a lot of people who work outdoors and need to check things and write things down when they're in the field.
Do you have anything as a backup to say its physically dangerous and generally unhealthy?
It's only unhealthy when the (1) the sun is out (no clouds), (2) the "shadows are short" (sun over 45° angle), (2) there's no (semi-)cover, and (3) you are in there already over ~15min for that day (this is different per skin type and tan-level).
Below that it's very healthy.
I prefer avoiding direct sunlight, but lounging outdoors in the shade is delightful.
I think you're misinformed. Sunlight has way more benefits than drawbacks.
See https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5129901/
Just feeling the warmth of the sun on your skin is a delight, it's also delightful to be outside (even if perhaps in a shadow or half-shadow) and read something.
No, the assumption that it is universally delightful for people is an incorrect one. The heating caused by the sun on my skin is not enjoyable at all.
I would remain indoors forever if it were possible. I find being outside to be just as archaic as swimming in the middle of the open ocean; unnecessary and uncomfortable.
'Silo'
Some of us touch grass
dude, you definitely need to get outside more often...
Why's that?