>Current tests suggest it is not likely related to any other known psychedelic compound. For one, the trips it produces are unusually long, commonly lasting 12 to 24 hours, and in some cases even causing hospital stays of up to a week.
Plenty of common psychedelics have durations in excess of 12 hours. Some even in excess of 24 e.g. high doses of 2C-P. This may be a novel compound, but the duration is not necessarily an indicator.
> "It sounded so bizarre that there could be a mushroom out there causing fairytale-like visions reported across cultures and time," Domnauer says.
Now I'm kinda curious whether fairy tales are the result of these visions or the other way around. Probably both.
In my youth I experimented with hallucinogenic drugs. Having shared hallucinations are very easy. It often just requires that someone give you an idea of a hallucination, or someone tells you what they see, and your brain will make you see it as well.
Maybe people know these things make you see small people, and then they are primed to do so.
In the brain, expectations modulate perception. If your perception is breaking down, expectations can control how.
So smurfs?
Common Side Effects? (show)
Great show!
Almost all of the reports from people I know who have done ayahuasca have reported seeing "elves". It's not only common, they say it's not a "valid" trip unless you do, and even converse with them.
Though I don't know any reports of profound conversations.
The idea that there is one “valid” trip is essentially gatekeeping and should be pushed back on whenever it comes up. It leads to one of the more unhealthy sides of the psychedelic experience - nobody should feel that they have to continually chase something that’s not happening for them.
Like, I know at least two people who’ve done it in group settings with people who saw “elves” and they themselves didn’t see any.
“Valid” as a descriptor is probably best replaced with “average”.
Some friends of mine in college were sitting in a cave, tripping, when a group of actual little people (not elves) walked past them.
The universe finds a way...
Fwiw having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times, I've never seen elves (have seen plenty of other weird stuff though). Only times have been with breakthrough doses of smoked dmt. I guarantee it doesn't make it any less/more valid. There are so many more profound things to see, I don't know why people get so hung up on elves lol (if you ever experience meeting the medicine of a master plant/tree spirt during a traditional dieta you'd be flabbergasted).
> having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times
I have some earnest questions, and please take it in that spirit, though I realize these might easily be interpreted as being negative.
To disclose, I've done LSD probably 15 times and 4-ACO-DMT three or four times. I haven't done it in years and I'm OK if I never do them again. LSD no longer hits the same way it used to such that the unpleasant parts now far outweigh the good parts.
Getting back to my questions, I've been under the understanding that ayahuasca can be punishing (vomiting, scary trips) but people often find it was worth it due to the insights they gain in the process. After the first handful of trips, are you still finding out new things? Are you so familiar with the terrifying aspects that they are no longer terrifying? Or are you lucky that the good aspects are still worth the price of admission? Is the driver for you insights or just the novel experiences which arise?
My wife's therapist went on an ayahuasca retreat and said it was like going through a wringer emotionally but it was really worth it. It had me wondering if maybe I should try it. A year later the therapist did it again and said it was like going through a ringer every night for four nights and she got nothing from it. :-(
Can you say more about your experiences? Did you ever feel like the effect became "normal" or background enough that you could casually take it? Or do you feel like there'll always a need to have cautious respect with it?
I have done ayahuasca and many people report seeing something like this: http://pbmo.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/machine-elf-2.jpg I can say from my personal experience, that this is only one possible "hallucination" although quite common.
> it's not a "valid" trip unless you do
You can definitely have a life-changing experience without encountering machine elves.
A friend told me once that his interpretation of the "elf" was that it was a reflection of himself. Does that match your experiences?
Feels like now that I've seen it, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy
Wonder if it will turn out to be related to muscimol that is in amanita mushrooms, as that is always described as more delirious and dream-like
Yes, but where can I get some?
Yes, also curious where you might locate a few kilos of said fungi?
There are other species of the same genus that grow in southern Europe and north America, but if any contain the same compounds they don't appear in the literature. More research needed.
Those are primarily associated with DMT (the one time I tried it, I too had such an encounter and I didn't know it was a thing until years later).
I'm sure I'll be corrected on this but I think DMT and Psilocybin ultimately affect the same pathways so it's just more evidence that Machine Elves are real! (/s on the real part).
>“It's not psilocybin that's giving the L. asiatica mushrooms their lilliputian effect”
Unknown compound ATM.
Yeah, my comment was a bit loose, but I think it's likely that the pathways are ultimately arriving at the same destination.
I've done plenty of psychonaut adventures in the past but it was only that one experience with DMT that actually gave that experience -- but it was also the only time in which I completely disengaged from local reality.
The mushrooms that the article talks about do not contain psilocybin (it's still not clear what psychoactive compound they contain), but you are correct in that DMT and psilocybin, at comparable doses, have extremely similar subjective effects.
Avid conosour of both DMT and Psilocybin and would not characterize the effects as “extremely similar”. Psychedelic yes, but profoundly different at their core in heroic doses—at least from my vantage point.
Just curious, nn-DMT or 5meo-DMT? I haven't tried either but have heard nn-DMT to be more the machine elves type experience and 5meo-DMT to elicit a feeling of not existing in the physical world anymore.
Usually when people just say DMT they mean nn-DMT (which is a lot more visual/weird and can bring on the "elves" at breakthrough dosage). 5-meo-dmt(/bufo) is much more of a felt thing, but can definitely have some visual effects (I usually get enveloped in the bright white light of god before dissolving into everything/nothing, ymmv).
Same vantage point here (with sample size n=1 on the DMT front).
They are both serotonin analogues, but they definitely yield different experiences.
In chemistry it often only takes a single atom difference to totally and radically change a molecule's properties.
>Current tests suggest it is not likely related to any other known psychedelic compound. For one, the trips it produces are unusually long, commonly lasting 12 to 24 hours, and in some cases even causing hospital stays of up to a week.
Plenty of common psychedelics have durations in excess of 12 hours. Some even in excess of 24 e.g. high doses of 2C-P. This may be a novel compound, but the duration is not necessarily an indicator.
> "It sounded so bizarre that there could be a mushroom out there causing fairytale-like visions reported across cultures and time," Domnauer says.
Now I'm kinda curious whether fairy tales are the result of these visions or the other way around. Probably both.
In my youth I experimented with hallucinogenic drugs. Having shared hallucinations are very easy. It often just requires that someone give you an idea of a hallucination, or someone tells you what they see, and your brain will make you see it as well.
Maybe people know these things make you see small people, and then they are primed to do so.
In the brain, expectations modulate perception. If your perception is breaking down, expectations can control how.
So smurfs?
Common Side Effects? (show)
Great show!
Almost all of the reports from people I know who have done ayahuasca have reported seeing "elves". It's not only common, they say it's not a "valid" trip unless you do, and even converse with them.
Though I don't know any reports of profound conversations.
The idea that there is one “valid” trip is essentially gatekeeping and should be pushed back on whenever it comes up. It leads to one of the more unhealthy sides of the psychedelic experience - nobody should feel that they have to continually chase something that’s not happening for them.
Like, I know at least two people who’ve done it in group settings with people who saw “elves” and they themselves didn’t see any.
“Valid” as a descriptor is probably best replaced with “average”.
Some friends of mine in college were sitting in a cave, tripping, when a group of actual little people (not elves) walked past them.
The universe finds a way...
Fwiw having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times, I've never seen elves (have seen plenty of other weird stuff though). Only times have been with breakthrough doses of smoked dmt. I guarantee it doesn't make it any less/more valid. There are so many more profound things to see, I don't know why people get so hung up on elves lol (if you ever experience meeting the medicine of a master plant/tree spirt during a traditional dieta you'd be flabbergasted).
> having drank ayahuasca hundreds of times
I have some earnest questions, and please take it in that spirit, though I realize these might easily be interpreted as being negative.
To disclose, I've done LSD probably 15 times and 4-ACO-DMT three or four times. I haven't done it in years and I'm OK if I never do them again. LSD no longer hits the same way it used to such that the unpleasant parts now far outweigh the good parts.
Getting back to my questions, I've been under the understanding that ayahuasca can be punishing (vomiting, scary trips) but people often find it was worth it due to the insights they gain in the process. After the first handful of trips, are you still finding out new things? Are you so familiar with the terrifying aspects that they are no longer terrifying? Or are you lucky that the good aspects are still worth the price of admission? Is the driver for you insights or just the novel experiences which arise?
My wife's therapist went on an ayahuasca retreat and said it was like going through a wringer emotionally but it was really worth it. It had me wondering if maybe I should try it. A year later the therapist did it again and said it was like going through a ringer every night for four nights and she got nothing from it. :-(
Can you say more about your experiences? Did you ever feel like the effect became "normal" or background enough that you could casually take it? Or do you feel like there'll always a need to have cautious respect with it?
I have done ayahuasca and many people report seeing something like this: http://pbmo.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/machine-elf-2.jpg I can say from my personal experience, that this is only one possible "hallucination" although quite common.
> it's not a "valid" trip unless you do You can definitely have a life-changing experience without encountering machine elves.
A friend told me once that his interpretation of the "elf" was that it was a reflection of himself. Does that match your experiences?
Feels like now that I've seen it, it could become a self fulfilling prophecy
Can't help but remember this wonderful story: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/04/21/universal-love-said-th...
Previous discussion:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46393936
Wonder if it will turn out to be related to muscimol that is in amanita mushrooms, as that is always described as more delirious and dream-like
Yes, but where can I get some?
Yes, also curious where you might locate a few kilos of said fungi?
There are other species of the same genus that grow in southern Europe and north America, but if any contain the same compounds they don't appear in the literature. More research needed.
But can we grow them in the UK?
This sounds like a variation of Machine Elves -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine#Entity_enco...
Those are primarily associated with DMT (the one time I tried it, I too had such an encounter and I didn't know it was a thing until years later).
I'm sure I'll be corrected on this but I think DMT and Psilocybin ultimately affect the same pathways so it's just more evidence that Machine Elves are real! (/s on the real part).
>“It's not psilocybin that's giving the L. asiatica mushrooms their lilliputian effect”
Unknown compound ATM.
Yeah, my comment was a bit loose, but I think it's likely that the pathways are ultimately arriving at the same destination.
I've done plenty of psychonaut adventures in the past but it was only that one experience with DMT that actually gave that experience -- but it was also the only time in which I completely disengaged from local reality.
The mushrooms that the article talks about do not contain psilocybin (it's still not clear what psychoactive compound they contain), but you are correct in that DMT and psilocybin, at comparable doses, have extremely similar subjective effects.
Avid conosour of both DMT and Psilocybin and would not characterize the effects as “extremely similar”. Psychedelic yes, but profoundly different at their core in heroic doses—at least from my vantage point.
Just curious, nn-DMT or 5meo-DMT? I haven't tried either but have heard nn-DMT to be more the machine elves type experience and 5meo-DMT to elicit a feeling of not existing in the physical world anymore.
Usually when people just say DMT they mean nn-DMT (which is a lot more visual/weird and can bring on the "elves" at breakthrough dosage). 5-meo-dmt(/bufo) is much more of a felt thing, but can definitely have some visual effects (I usually get enveloped in the bright white light of god before dissolving into everything/nothing, ymmv).
Same vantage point here (with sample size n=1 on the DMT front).
They are both serotonin analogues, but they definitely yield different experiences.
In chemistry it often only takes a single atom difference to totally and radically change a molecule's properties.
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