Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces.
They should augment deployed enforcement with those who have such expertise.
> Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces.
Why is crowd control even needed?
ICE existed for many, many years before now, and them doing their job never caused crowds previously (under both R and D administrations), so what (rhetorically) changed?
There's a big difference between seeing an immigration raid where you know whoever gets picked up is going to have access to a lawyer, be subject to proper due process, and at worst be sent back to their home country. We knew - or at least believed - that if they detained someone who was a citizen, that person would be released.
Now, when we see ICE grabbing someone, we know that person probably won't have access to legal representation even if they are here legally, even if they're a citizen. We know they might be sent to a concentration camp in a foreign country they aren't from, and we know they might even get murdered in the street. It's a very different dynamic.
None of this is true if you just comply. I have zero fear of any of this happening to me. And I'll celebrate with my lawyer if it does.
There are tens of millions of people in the country illegally. They must go. The one time the government actually does its job and we have lunatics putting their lives on the line to interfere!? I don't understand it. Just let them get the job done.
Oh this is easy: a gigantic funding increase is being used to massively expand workforce with minimal training, then that workforce is being deployed with an ambiguous mission and apparent arrest quotas, while also being told they’re immune from any criminal liability for their actions (they’re not), including internal memos telling them they’re allowed to enter private homes without judicial warrants (they’re not), and a SCOTUS decision that is being represented to mean that racial profiling is legal now (it's not)
Deploying literal hordes of poorly trained, well-armed men onto American streets with explicit guidance that runs directly contrary to the US Constitution's plain text can, will, and SHOULD attract crowds in opposition.
Hope that helps!
Didn't ICE and predecessor organizations do workplace raids? Maybe that's not as big of a crowd, but it's still a crowd. I think they would tend to do workplace raids in concert with the FBI.
Who? They are complaining that sanctuary cities' local police are not cooperating. Who else are you suggesting has the necessary expertise?
MN police are delivering criminals with no citizenship status to ICE / DHS though.
They have not been supporting ICE on warrentless invasions, fishing expeditions, assaulting local citizens.
Surely, you're not saying that the feds are saying things that are counter to what's actually happening on the ground, are you? /s
At this point, you just have to assume the truth is exactly the opposite of what the feds are saying. How do you know a fed is lying...their mouth is moving.
Perhaps if they cannot carry out their goals without hurting people, the answer is "take a step back" and not "hurt people."
Well, if local police is not cooperating then it's as designed by the constitution (states have the authority to police), to not give federal government powers to make the country a police state. Feature, not a bug. Federals should discuss and persuade the state and their police.
Nobody said the police are not policing. They have their own jobs and not there to do the bidding of the federal government. You're saying this like the local authorities are meant to drop what they are doing at the drop of dime because the feds have a request. These are not dangerous criminals that require a timely response before causing more harm. These are people trying to live their lives and it will not harm the rest of the citizens by doing immigration enforcement at a slower pace.
Did you not notice chasil and deepsun were different accounts?
What does that have to do with my response to the comment I replied?
Your reply to deepsun made no sense as reply to deepsun. You said You're saying this like the local authorities are meant to drop what they are doing at the drop of dime because the feds have a request. But deepsun said the opposite almost.
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That's the what the state police is for... the one that Minnesota refused to deploy to help ICE when the Good and Pretti situations happened.
The state police are not for enforcing federal law unless the state wants them to. That's a pretty big part of what makes them STATE police, actually.
Why do we expect the state police to help murderers? My only question is why they're not out there protecting the people from the murderers.
The state police are not "for" non-violent enforcement.
I mean yeah, they're not "for" it but you can see how deploying the PD would be helpful as they're more inclined to be non-violent and also I'd reckon they have far more experience than ICE considering the mass requirements which results in many many ICE officers being pretty much just militarized citizens with lacking experience put into stressful situations.
Why are they more inclined to be non-violent?
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It's a feature, not a bug
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i can’t wait until the gestapo, and the powers that be, revoke my citizenship and send me to a ice detention center so i can make license plates
One of the pleasant things, though, is that if that kind of thing is on the table you probably have some kind of moral imperative to start doing something about it.
Previously I felt like a hyperbolic nerd, and now I have a whole lot of new friends all working on the same stuff. Wheee. Go team. I hate it.
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Fascism has come to the United States.
It's been here for a long time, it finally has encouragement to show its face.
fish rots from the head. Violence, lies and grift. The very head is convicted grifter who is openly using his position for personal enrichment. Right next - Noem - trigger happy dog shooter, and why suddenly so many DHS ads with her ? :
"Firm Tied to Kristi Noem Secretly Got Money From $220 Million DHS Ad Contracts
The company is run by the husband of Noem’s chief DHS spokesperson and has personal and business ties to Noem and her aides. DHS invoked the “emergency” at the border to skirt competitive bidding rules for the taxpayer-funded campaign."
and that cherry on top:
"DHS, White House shared white nationalist song in ICE recruitment posts"
This was not a particularly good condition fish to begin with....
It’s hilarious seeing the kind of narratives the right is coming up with to avoid admitting the obvious truth which is on video from multiple angles. I’m now seeing people say things like “you can’t carry a gun at protests” (even though there are numerous photos of people openly carrying guns at right wing protests), or “here’s a different video showing Pretty was an agitator” (as if that excuses the execution), or “wait for bodycam footage” (even though there is a video of them removing his gun and later putting him on his knees).
I will say though that I am also a bit scared. When government officials push a blatantly false narrative, that they know is a lie, and their supporting voters completely accept that version of reality over what they can see with their eyes, it suggests that those same voters would be okay with ANYTHING the administration does.
Yes, this. After watching all the video angles, to have seemingly intelligent people come to some crazy conclusion means they are hopelessly mindfucked. It's really hard to understand how these groupthink spells work, but clearly they do. I think my perspective is so focused on facts that my mind is having trouble bending to the fact that MANY people do not critically think from first principles, about nearly everything. It's troubling to me, making me feel somewhat alienated to at least 40% of the human race.
"Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"
It's been this way for a while, though. It's just that the stakes of the things they are willing to tell folks to "2+2=5" about seem to have dropped substantially. It used to be about the goodness of US foreign interventions and, say, "imperial capitalism" in general, and they made plenty of fun propaganda to support it: "Red Dawn" or "First Blood"- quality and fun propaganda.
When they started kidnapping folks from our communities who've been peacefully chilling and being community members for decades, it got a lot less abstract, I think.
If it helps, understand that it becomes ever easier to get folks to disbelieve the government when they can see it; it's far harder to get the average brunch-enjoyer to care when they are doing a central american coup... much easier to care when they are shooting yt wmn in the streets.
Famously, there are plenty of stories in the west about eastern-bloc countries and propaganda, where everyone knows that that the papers don't tell the truth but the truth circulates regardless.
So maybe don't worry about the false narratives- worry about the recouperative powers of capital to pull all those radicalized liberals back into the fold instead of using a mass line of organization to force structural changes.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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If that’s your rationale for soft pedaling shock troops attacking American citizens, yes deeply flawed.
You're employing some polarizing language yourself. Calling people "illegals" because of their immigration status demeans them. Beyond that, this language is often used to justify illegal restrictions of their civil rights. Immigrants, regardless of their legal status, have civil rights and human rights.
The person who murdered Laken Riley was not acting on behalf of the government. That is the difference. Do you see the difference?
There is plenty of concern for victims of crime. That's why there are jails, and people in the jails.
> Why are such comment downvoted?
Why are you inferring that that comment was downvoted for the 13% of it that you quoted rather than something in the other 87%?
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This is not a political calculus. Nobody with half a brain believes that Trump's choices are about efficiently deporting people here illegally; they are designed to intimidate and punish his opponents while making the US more authoritarian.
The government cannot send out masked, untrained goon squads to bust down doors without warrants or probable cause. They are forbidden from doing that by the Constitution.
The "inevitable tragedies" are from free people exercising their rights in the face of an administration which obviously has nothing but contempt for them.
Just empty words. The chaos could easily be avoided and lives saved if the Dems actually cared, but they don't.
1st amendment denier
also I'm not a dem apologist but this is just Fox News regurgitation from this guy. F both parties
Nah just absolute commonsense.
Renee Good dropped her kids off in childcare so she could go and obstruct armed law enforcement officers in the course of their work using her car as a weapon.
If a close member of your family told you they were intending to do this, would you discourage them from taking this action?
If you cared about them, of course you would discourage this. And if you are honest you would admit this.
The Democrat party is encouraging people to do this.
I get it - you love Republicans and hate Democrats. I hate them all. Can you just connect a few more neurons in your brain and rise above it for a little bit and consider the costs? We're losing our rights and seeing a test of them live on video. Assuming we have elections again this can be used by both. Wake up dude.
The chaos is unavoidable because Trump is a moron. If freedom is an empty phrase to you, it would really explain a lot.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
bad take
Accurate take
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head in sand take. stop listening to propaganda.
Citing an AI tweet hardly screams accurate. They're killing American citizens with immunity. Enjoy the taste of boot leather in your mouth dude.
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Whats your feeling about the people that are killed by illegals who shouldn't even be in the country? Seems like you are arguing for their immunity yes?
According to your own numbers, Clinton and Obama managed to to deport 15 million people, and somehow they managed to do it without executing any citizens in the street.
No one is killing American citizens with immunity - except ICE. The man who killed Laken Riley is in Prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laken_Riley. Where are the masked agents who killed Renee Good and Alex Pretti?
You send in the Calvary to get this straw Juan of yours, you don’t sick them on the state of Minnesota
Who the hell is arguing for their immunity? If anyone commits a murder, they should be put in jail.
Everyone within the borders of the United States has rights, even if they're here illegally. That's what it means to be a free country.
Have you considered that you Americans are so radicalized on either side you mindlessly either defend ICE or go against ICE which is what is causing this issue?
Calling ICE "gestapo" and Trump "Hitler" and are genuinely crazy things, gestapo can be pretty accurately described by 1984 as the thought police, ICE, while being an organ of a state is far from that. You may think they have immunity but federal courts seem quite fast at picking up the cases regarding the happenings in the article which I can assure you would not happen if ICE truly had immunity. And if ICE really was the gestapo, all the people at the protests and arrests would be killed indiscriminately; in the articles you see actions taking place before the shootings that can be seen as an attack on federal officers... If ICE was the gestapo just existing and showing you're against ICE would get you gunned down or arrested, it would get all the people at those protests gunned down or arrested.
There are untrained MASKED federal agents killing American citizens. They pistol whipped Alex Pretti before shooting him. This is not normal. I think its appropo.
> Calling ICE "gestapo" and Trump "Hitler" and are genuinely crazy things, gestapo can be pretty accurately described by 1984 as the thought police, ICE, while being an organ of a state is far from that.
I'm not sure what you mean. The Gastapo was an organ of the state. Geheime Staatspolize means "Secret State Police."
Hard disagree about ICE as Gestapo. ICE is Trump's secret police, loyal to him, accountable to him.
I suppose Gestapo did have more menacing uniforms.
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While I do feel like it is bringing attention to some questionable behaviour of the DHS and trying to share nuanced information I also feel like at parts this article kind of side step that in order to slander ICE more, though this has been apparent with Reuters for a while as the Good shooting article contains information about the agent saying "fucking bitch" but not her wife telling her to "drive drive" when the officer is positioned in front of a car, where I've noticed more left wing sources do that when reporting on it while more right wing sources do the opposite and leave out the former while including the latter.
Arguably ICE does seem to overreact but I would still appreciate more nuanced articles that really try their best to be purely fact based and don't attempt to manipulate the wording to make ICE seem better or worse than it is.
> but not her wife telling her to "drive drive" when the officer is positioned in front of a car
where was everyone standing when she said to drive? could she see the ICE agent in front of the car? also, you can tell someone to "drive drive", but that does not mean to "drive over whoever is in front of you". reads to me like you are as guilty of reading more into it as you claim they are for not quoting 'drive drive'.
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If you think nuance is missing, you could add the nuance of agents swarming her vehicle with a high likelihood of violently extracting her from the car and detaining her.
This is the upgraded version of "you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride" -- where that ride may take you halfway across the country and be detained incommunicado for many days before being ejected out of the holding center and on your own to get home.
This is well-documented and a legitimate concern of any legal protester being illegally detained.
Edit: Why the disagreement? I don't like it that people were killed, same as you all I hope.
> violently extracting her from the car
Isn't that what always happens when someone doesn't comply when told to exit their vehicle? Since when has not complying with an officer on the street resulted them in saying, 'Oh, okay, carry on what you were doing'?
I imagine if I parked perpendicular on a road and danced while honking my horn (timestamp 39 seconds in video below), then not complying when the police told me to exit the vehicle, the police would try to extract me by force as well.
I always thought a protest was chanting with signs, but it seems like times have changed.
I haven't seen videos and of officers going up to people holding signs (who are not trying to be physical with the officers) and initiating physical contact.
I haven't seen video of the officers walk up to Alex Pretti and tackle him for no reason. I have seen a video of him on a prior day kicking and breaking the light off a vehicle:
Are constant blaring of whistles at Alex Pretti's shooting, to alert people, or make it more likely for the officers to make a mistake?
I'm not a fan of anything that's going on, and it appears that people are trying to make things worse, not better. Why?
>to "drive drive" when the officer is positioned in front of a car
when you're in front of of the car at some distance like the shooting ICE in the video and the car is making a turn in front of you, you clearly see that the car is moving away from you to the side, not moving toward you.
Jonathan Ross: shoots a woman three times, with the killing shot to the head fired from the side of the vehicle after the danger had passed, if there ever was any danger to begin with.
News: holy shit this guy murdered that lady on camera.
You: they are slandering ICE.
Make it make sense.
> officials rushed to defend immigration officers without waiting for key facts to emerge – in what former immigration officials called a clear break with past practice for federal agencies
Without obscuring how bad is it, I don't believe there was ever a time when officials _didn't_ rush to defend federal officers without waiting for key facts to emerge. The us government has constantly loved to say that no one working for them has done anything wrong.
Calling American citizens domestic terrorists 30 mins after they were shot dead by agents of the President's shiny new initiative is a bit of an escalation on the generic government face-saving responses. The rhetoric is escalating and dangerous.
Is it? I really don't think so. You don't remember the whole "superpredator" thing? Every time a black dude is shot, they'll start talking about how he must have been some kinda criminal. People of color have been suffering this shit forever. Sure, the Internet makes things faster, but the policies are the same.
in that case, it seems like as good of a time to stop as ever
It's seemed like a good time for quite a while...
Never like this.
The way Noem et al. immediately started with the violent domestic terrorist rhetoric / we've done nothing wrong was absolutely unheralded, and the government was never like this. When there's a shooting you say that the situation on the ground is dynamic, evidence is being amassed, the subjects are on leave pending the investigation, etc.
This was completely unlike the historic norm, and clearly it was the marching orders. They were obviously instructed to ape Trump's habit of utter confidence in the face of devastating reality.
And I mean, it just reflects how Trump operates. Reality is secondary to what you claim it is, and if you lie, and everyone knows you lied, just repeat the lie again and again and it breaks many people's brains until some subset of the population will just go "Wow, no one is so shameless or vile they'd lie like this, so he must be telling the truth!". Similarly, immediately pretend that these situations and slam dunk, quick-close cases with over the top rhetoric (terrorism! ICE agent hospitalized in mortal danger, etc) no further consideration needed, is perfectly coherent with the way Trump has managed to con so, so many.
I think to an extent Trump is a fall guy, even when it comes to Venezuela he was dragged through the mud where his predecessors have constantly undermined the sovereignty of other nations and attacked them under the guise of protecting the US from terrorism when it was about oil and mineral ritches [1], the same with the deportation centers which while they were getting some criticism it was nowhere near the level of slander that there is towards the current admin doing the same thing.
Our cities are being occuppied by paramilitary forces who are assaulting residents, routinely telling brazen lies about high-profile incidents, and racially profiling without pretense. This is not normal.
If Trump got "dragged through the mud" on Venezuela, he did it to himself. What we know about that operation indicates it's clearly a Trump op.
But overall, I also disagree. The press has been very easy on Trump, from going easy on the grab then by the pussy tape, to never saying that he lies, to not making an issue out of his mental decline.
Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces.
They should augment deployed enforcement with those who have such expertise.
> Nonviolent crowd control does not seem to be a core competence of these federal forces.
Why is crowd control even needed?
ICE existed for many, many years before now, and them doing their job never caused crowds previously (under both R and D administrations), so what (rhetorically) changed?
There's a big difference between seeing an immigration raid where you know whoever gets picked up is going to have access to a lawyer, be subject to proper due process, and at worst be sent back to their home country. We knew - or at least believed - that if they detained someone who was a citizen, that person would be released.
Now, when we see ICE grabbing someone, we know that person probably won't have access to legal representation even if they are here legally, even if they're a citizen. We know they might be sent to a concentration camp in a foreign country they aren't from, and we know they might even get murdered in the street. It's a very different dynamic.
None of this is true if you just comply. I have zero fear of any of this happening to me. And I'll celebrate with my lawyer if it does.
There are tens of millions of people in the country illegally. They must go. The one time the government actually does its job and we have lunatics putting their lives on the line to interfere!? I don't understand it. Just let them get the job done.
Oh this is easy: a gigantic funding increase is being used to massively expand workforce with minimal training, then that workforce is being deployed with an ambiguous mission and apparent arrest quotas, while also being told they’re immune from any criminal liability for their actions (they’re not), including internal memos telling them they’re allowed to enter private homes without judicial warrants (they’re not), and a SCOTUS decision that is being represented to mean that racial profiling is legal now (it's not)
Deploying literal hordes of poorly trained, well-armed men onto American streets with explicit guidance that runs directly contrary to the US Constitution's plain text can, will, and SHOULD attract crowds in opposition.
Hope that helps!
Didn't ICE and predecessor organizations do workplace raids? Maybe that's not as big of a crowd, but it's still a crowd. I think they would tend to do workplace raids in concert with the FBI.
Who? They are complaining that sanctuary cities' local police are not cooperating. Who else are you suggesting has the necessary expertise?
MN police are delivering criminals with no citizenship status to ICE / DHS though.
They have not been supporting ICE on warrentless invasions, fishing expeditions, assaulting local citizens.
Surely, you're not saying that the feds are saying things that are counter to what's actually happening on the ground, are you? /s
At this point, you just have to assume the truth is exactly the opposite of what the feds are saying. How do you know a fed is lying...their mouth is moving.
Perhaps if they cannot carry out their goals without hurting people, the answer is "take a step back" and not "hurt people."
Well, if local police is not cooperating then it's as designed by the constitution (states have the authority to police), to not give federal government powers to make the country a police state. Feature, not a bug. Federals should discuss and persuade the state and their police.
Nobody said the police are not policing. They have their own jobs and not there to do the bidding of the federal government. You're saying this like the local authorities are meant to drop what they are doing at the drop of dime because the feds have a request. These are not dangerous criminals that require a timely response before causing more harm. These are people trying to live their lives and it will not harm the rest of the citizens by doing immigration enforcement at a slower pace.
Did you not notice chasil and deepsun were different accounts?
What does that have to do with my response to the comment I replied?
Your reply to deepsun made no sense as reply to deepsun. You said You're saying this like the local authorities are meant to drop what they are doing at the drop of dime because the feds have a request. But deepsun said the opposite almost.
That's the what the state police is for... the one that Minnesota refused to deploy to help ICE when the Good and Pretti situations happened.
The state police are not for enforcing federal law unless the state wants them to. That's a pretty big part of what makes them STATE police, actually.
Why do we expect the state police to help murderers? My only question is why they're not out there protecting the people from the murderers.
The state police are not "for" non-violent enforcement.
I mean yeah, they're not "for" it but you can see how deploying the PD would be helpful as they're more inclined to be non-violent and also I'd reckon they have far more experience than ICE considering the mass requirements which results in many many ICE officers being pretty much just militarized citizens with lacking experience put into stressful situations.
Why are they more inclined to be non-violent?
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It's a feature, not a bug
i can’t wait until the gestapo, and the powers that be, revoke my citizenship and send me to a ice detention center so i can make license plates
One of the pleasant things, though, is that if that kind of thing is on the table you probably have some kind of moral imperative to start doing something about it.
Previously I felt like a hyperbolic nerd, and now I have a whole lot of new friends all working on the same stuff. Wheee. Go team. I hate it.
Fascism has come to the United States.
It's been here for a long time, it finally has encouragement to show its face.
fish rots from the head. Violence, lies and grift. The very head is convicted grifter who is openly using his position for personal enrichment. Right next - Noem - trigger happy dog shooter, and why suddenly so many DHS ads with her ? :
https://www.propublica.org/article/kristi-noem-dhs-ad-campai...
"Firm Tied to Kristi Noem Secretly Got Money From $220 Million DHS Ad Contracts The company is run by the husband of Noem’s chief DHS spokesperson and has personal and business ties to Noem and her aides. DHS invoked the “emergency” at the border to skirt competitive bidding rules for the taxpayer-funded campaign."
and that cherry on top:
"DHS, White House shared white nationalist song in ICE recruitment posts"
https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hatewatch/white-national...
This was not a particularly good condition fish to begin with....
It’s hilarious seeing the kind of narratives the right is coming up with to avoid admitting the obvious truth which is on video from multiple angles. I’m now seeing people say things like “you can’t carry a gun at protests” (even though there are numerous photos of people openly carrying guns at right wing protests), or “here’s a different video showing Pretty was an agitator” (as if that excuses the execution), or “wait for bodycam footage” (even though there is a video of them removing his gun and later putting him on his knees).
I will say though that I am also a bit scared. When government officials push a blatantly false narrative, that they know is a lie, and their supporting voters completely accept that version of reality over what they can see with their eyes, it suggests that those same voters would be okay with ANYTHING the administration does.
Yes, this. After watching all the video angles, to have seemingly intelligent people come to some crazy conclusion means they are hopelessly mindfucked. It's really hard to understand how these groupthink spells work, but clearly they do. I think my perspective is so focused on facts that my mind is having trouble bending to the fact that MANY people do not critically think from first principles, about nearly everything. It's troubling to me, making me feel somewhat alienated to at least 40% of the human race.
"Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?"
It's been this way for a while, though. It's just that the stakes of the things they are willing to tell folks to "2+2=5" about seem to have dropped substantially. It used to be about the goodness of US foreign interventions and, say, "imperial capitalism" in general, and they made plenty of fun propaganda to support it: "Red Dawn" or "First Blood"- quality and fun propaganda.
When they started kidnapping folks from our communities who've been peacefully chilling and being community members for decades, it got a lot less abstract, I think.
If it helps, understand that it becomes ever easier to get folks to disbelieve the government when they can see it; it's far harder to get the average brunch-enjoyer to care when they are doing a central american coup... much easier to care when they are shooting yt wmn in the streets.
Famously, there are plenty of stories in the west about eastern-bloc countries and propaganda, where everyone knows that that the papers don't tell the truth but the truth circulates regardless.
So maybe don't worry about the false narratives- worry about the recouperative powers of capital to pull all those radicalized liberals back into the fold instead of using a mass line of organization to force structural changes.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
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If that’s your rationale for soft pedaling shock troops attacking American citizens, yes deeply flawed.
You're employing some polarizing language yourself. Calling people "illegals" because of their immigration status demeans them. Beyond that, this language is often used to justify illegal restrictions of their civil rights. Immigrants, regardless of their legal status, have civil rights and human rights.
The person who murdered Laken Riley was not acting on behalf of the government. That is the difference. Do you see the difference?
There is plenty of concern for victims of crime. That's why there are jails, and people in the jails.
> Why are such comment downvoted?
Why are you inferring that that comment was downvoted for the 13% of it that you quoted rather than something in the other 87%?
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This is not a political calculus. Nobody with half a brain believes that Trump's choices are about efficiently deporting people here illegally; they are designed to intimidate and punish his opponents while making the US more authoritarian.
The government cannot send out masked, untrained goon squads to bust down doors without warrants or probable cause. They are forbidden from doing that by the Constitution.
The "inevitable tragedies" are from free people exercising their rights in the face of an administration which obviously has nothing but contempt for them.
Just empty words. The chaos could easily be avoided and lives saved if the Dems actually cared, but they don't.
1st amendment denier
also I'm not a dem apologist but this is just Fox News regurgitation from this guy. F both parties
Nah just absolute commonsense.
Renee Good dropped her kids off in childcare so she could go and obstruct armed law enforcement officers in the course of their work using her car as a weapon.
If a close member of your family told you they were intending to do this, would you discourage them from taking this action? If you cared about them, of course you would discourage this. And if you are honest you would admit this.
The Democrat party is encouraging people to do this.
I get it - you love Republicans and hate Democrats. I hate them all. Can you just connect a few more neurons in your brain and rise above it for a little bit and consider the costs? We're losing our rights and seeing a test of them live on video. Assuming we have elections again this can be used by both. Wake up dude.
The chaos is unavoidable because Trump is a moron. If freedom is an empty phrase to you, it would really explain a lot.
"The beatings will continue until morale improves."
bad take
Accurate take
head in sand take. stop listening to propaganda.
Citing an AI tweet hardly screams accurate. They're killing American citizens with immunity. Enjoy the taste of boot leather in your mouth dude.
Whats your feeling about the people that are killed by illegals who shouldn't even be in the country? Seems like you are arguing for their immunity yes?
According to your own numbers, Clinton and Obama managed to to deport 15 million people, and somehow they managed to do it without executing any citizens in the street.
No one is killing American citizens with immunity - except ICE. The man who killed Laken Riley is in Prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Laken_Riley. Where are the masked agents who killed Renee Good and Alex Pretti?
You send in the Calvary to get this straw Juan of yours, you don’t sick them on the state of Minnesota
Who the hell is arguing for their immunity? If anyone commits a murder, they should be put in jail.
Everyone within the borders of the United States has rights, even if they're here illegally. That's what it means to be a free country.
Have you considered that you Americans are so radicalized on either side you mindlessly either defend ICE or go against ICE which is what is causing this issue?
Calling ICE "gestapo" and Trump "Hitler" and are genuinely crazy things, gestapo can be pretty accurately described by 1984 as the thought police, ICE, while being an organ of a state is far from that. You may think they have immunity but federal courts seem quite fast at picking up the cases regarding the happenings in the article which I can assure you would not happen if ICE truly had immunity. And if ICE really was the gestapo, all the people at the protests and arrests would be killed indiscriminately; in the articles you see actions taking place before the shootings that can be seen as an attack on federal officers... If ICE was the gestapo just existing and showing you're against ICE would get you gunned down or arrested, it would get all the people at those protests gunned down or arrested.
There are untrained MASKED federal agents killing American citizens. They pistol whipped Alex Pretti before shooting him. This is not normal. I think its appropo.
> Calling ICE "gestapo" and Trump "Hitler" and are genuinely crazy things, gestapo can be pretty accurately described by 1984 as the thought police, ICE, while being an organ of a state is far from that.
I'm not sure what you mean. The Gastapo was an organ of the state. Geheime Staatspolize means "Secret State Police."
Hard disagree about ICE as Gestapo. ICE is Trump's secret police, loyal to him, accountable to him.
I suppose Gestapo did have more menacing uniforms.
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While I do feel like it is bringing attention to some questionable behaviour of the DHS and trying to share nuanced information I also feel like at parts this article kind of side step that in order to slander ICE more, though this has been apparent with Reuters for a while as the Good shooting article contains information about the agent saying "fucking bitch" but not her wife telling her to "drive drive" when the officer is positioned in front of a car, where I've noticed more left wing sources do that when reporting on it while more right wing sources do the opposite and leave out the former while including the latter.
Arguably ICE does seem to overreact but I would still appreciate more nuanced articles that really try their best to be purely fact based and don't attempt to manipulate the wording to make ICE seem better or worse than it is.
> but not her wife telling her to "drive drive" when the officer is positioned in front of a car
where was everyone standing when she said to drive? could she see the ICE agent in front of the car? also, you can tell someone to "drive drive", but that does not mean to "drive over whoever is in front of you". reads to me like you are as guilty of reading more into it as you claim they are for not quoting 'drive drive'.
If you think nuance is missing, you could add the nuance of agents swarming her vehicle with a high likelihood of violently extracting her from the car and detaining her.
This is the upgraded version of "you may beat the rap but you won't beat the ride" -- where that ride may take you halfway across the country and be detained incommunicado for many days before being ejected out of the holding center and on your own to get home.
This is well-documented and a legitimate concern of any legal protester being illegally detained.
Edit: Why the disagreement? I don't like it that people were killed, same as you all I hope.
> violently extracting her from the car
Isn't that what always happens when someone doesn't comply when told to exit their vehicle? Since when has not complying with an officer on the street resulted them in saying, 'Oh, okay, carry on what you were doing'?
I imagine if I parked perpendicular on a road and danced while honking my horn (timestamp 39 seconds in video below), then not complying when the police told me to exit the vehicle, the police would try to extract me by force as well.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wrlUUPZPpaY
I always thought a protest was chanting with signs, but it seems like times have changed.
I haven't seen videos and of officers going up to people holding signs (who are not trying to be physical with the officers) and initiating physical contact.
I haven't seen video of the officers walk up to Alex Pretti and tackle him for no reason. I have seen a video of him on a prior day kicking and breaking the light off a vehicle:
https://x.com/RyanSaavedra/status/2016611647553413126
Are constant blaring of whistles at Alex Pretti's shooting, to alert people, or make it more likely for the officers to make a mistake?
I'm not a fan of anything that's going on, and it appears that people are trying to make things worse, not better. Why?
>to "drive drive" when the officer is positioned in front of a car
when you're in front of of the car at some distance like the shooting ICE in the video and the car is making a turn in front of you, you clearly see that the car is moving away from you to the side, not moving toward you.
Jonathan Ross: shoots a woman three times, with the killing shot to the head fired from the side of the vehicle after the danger had passed, if there ever was any danger to begin with.
News: holy shit this guy murdered that lady on camera.
You: they are slandering ICE.
Make it make sense.
> officials rushed to defend immigration officers without waiting for key facts to emerge – in what former immigration officials called a clear break with past practice for federal agencies
Without obscuring how bad is it, I don't believe there was ever a time when officials _didn't_ rush to defend federal officers without waiting for key facts to emerge. The us government has constantly loved to say that no one working for them has done anything wrong.
Calling American citizens domestic terrorists 30 mins after they were shot dead by agents of the President's shiny new initiative is a bit of an escalation on the generic government face-saving responses. The rhetoric is escalating and dangerous.
Is it? I really don't think so. You don't remember the whole "superpredator" thing? Every time a black dude is shot, they'll start talking about how he must have been some kinda criminal. People of color have been suffering this shit forever. Sure, the Internet makes things faster, but the policies are the same.
in that case, it seems like as good of a time to stop as ever
It's seemed like a good time for quite a while...
Never like this.
The way Noem et al. immediately started with the violent domestic terrorist rhetoric / we've done nothing wrong was absolutely unheralded, and the government was never like this. When there's a shooting you say that the situation on the ground is dynamic, evidence is being amassed, the subjects are on leave pending the investigation, etc.
This was completely unlike the historic norm, and clearly it was the marching orders. They were obviously instructed to ape Trump's habit of utter confidence in the face of devastating reality.
And I mean, it just reflects how Trump operates. Reality is secondary to what you claim it is, and if you lie, and everyone knows you lied, just repeat the lie again and again and it breaks many people's brains until some subset of the population will just go "Wow, no one is so shameless or vile they'd lie like this, so he must be telling the truth!". Similarly, immediately pretend that these situations and slam dunk, quick-close cases with over the top rhetoric (terrorism! ICE agent hospitalized in mortal danger, etc) no further consideration needed, is perfectly coherent with the way Trump has managed to con so, so many.
I think to an extent Trump is a fall guy, even when it comes to Venezuela he was dragged through the mud where his predecessors have constantly undermined the sovereignty of other nations and attacked them under the guise of protecting the US from terrorism when it was about oil and mineral ritches [1], the same with the deportation centers which while they were getting some criticism it was nowhere near the level of slander that there is towards the current admin doing the same thing.
[1] https://youtu.be/C3LFbOSPfrE
Our cities are being occuppied by paramilitary forces who are assaulting residents, routinely telling brazen lies about high-profile incidents, and racially profiling without pretense. This is not normal.
If Trump got "dragged through the mud" on Venezuela, he did it to himself. What we know about that operation indicates it's clearly a Trump op.
But overall, I also disagree. The press has been very easy on Trump, from going easy on the grab then by the pussy tape, to never saying that he lies, to not making an issue out of his mental decline.