RISC-V has no carry bit and this whole thing becomes awkward.
I am under the impression that boost::multiprecision has specialized templates for 128 and 256 bit math, but maybe I'm wrong. In practice when I've wanted extended precision, I've just used GMP or a language with bignums.
I would expect the best x86 machine code for many 128 bit operations would use XMM instructions, no? But I haven't investigated.
Question for those smarter than me: What is an application for an int128 type anyways? I've never personally needed it, and I laughed at RISC-V for emphasizing that early on rather than... standardizing packed SIMD.
[deleted]
Any application which uses arithmetic on 64bit ints, because most operations can overflow. And most libs/compilers don't check for overflows.
int64_t a, b, c, r;
r = (a * b) / c; /* multiplication step could overflow so use 128bits */
Cryptography would be one application. Many crypto libraries use an arbitrary size `bigint` type, but the algorithms typically use modular arithmetic on some fixed width types (128-bit, 256-bit, 512-bit, or some in-between like 384-bits).
They're typically implemented with arrays of 64-bit or 32-bit unsigned integers, but if 128-bits were available in hardware, we could get a performance boost. Any arbitrary precision integer library would benefit from 128-bit hardware integers.
I suppose that makes sense -- though SIMD seems more useful for accelerating a lot of crypto?
SIMD is for performing parallel operations on many smaller types. It can help with some cryptography, but It doesn't necessarily help when performing single arithmetic operations on larger types. Though it does help when performing logic and shift operations on larger types.
If we were performing 128-bit arithmetic in parallel over many values, then a SIMD implementation may help, but without a SIMD equivalent of `addcarry`, there's a limit to how much it can help.
Something like this could potentially be added to AVX-512 for example by utilizing the `k` mask registers for the carries.
The best we have currently is `adcx` and `adox` which let us use two interleaved addcarry chains, where one utilizes the carry flag and the other utilizes the overflow flag, which improves ILP. These instructions are quite niche but are used in bigint libraries to improve performance.
I implemented a rational number library for media timestamps (think CMTime, AVRational, etc.) that uses 64-bit numerators and denominators. It uses 128-bit integers for intermediate operations when adding, subtracting, multiplying, etc. It even uses 128-bit floats (represented as 2 doubles and using double-double arithmetic[1]) for some approximation operations and even 192-bit integers in one spot (IIRC it's multiplying a 128-bit and 64-bit ints and I just want the high bits so it shifts back down to 128 bits immediately after the multiplication).
I keep meaning to see if work will let me open source it.
The last time I used one I wanted UNIX timestamps + fractional seconds. Since there was no difference between adding 1 bit or 64, I just gave it 32 bits for the fraction and 32 more bits for the integral part.
I made a time sync library over local network that had to be more precise than NTP and used i128 to make sure the i64 math I was doing couldn't overflow.
I32 didn't cover enough time span and f64 has edge cases from the nature of floats. This was for Windows (MACC not GCC) so I had to roll out my own i128.
It's used fairly frequently (e.g. in turning 64 bit division into multiplication and shifts).
[deleted]
It's an opaque way to hold a GUID or an IP6 address
Intersection calculations from computational geometry. Intersection calculations generally require about 2*n+log2(n) bits.
If you like your CAD accurate, you have to operate in integer space.
I am so happy that MSVC added 128 bit integers to their standard library in order to do ranges distance of uint64_t iota views. One type alias away from int128's on most machines running gcc/clang/msvc
I understand why a non-standard compiler-specific implementation of int128 was not used (Besides being compiler specific, the point of the article is to walk through an implementation of it), but why use
> using u64 = unsigned long long;
? Although in practice, this is _usually_ an unsigned 64 bit integer, the C++ Standard does not technically guarantee this, all it says is that the type need to be _at least_ 64 bits. [0]
I would use std::uint64_t which guarantees a type of that size, provided it is supported. [1]
Re: Multiplication: regrouping our u64 digits
I am aware more advanced and faster algorithms exist, but I wonder if something simple like Karatsuba's Algorithm [2] which uses 3 multiplications instead of 4, could be a quick win for performance over the naive method used in the article. Though since it was mentioned that the compiler-specific unsigned 128 integers more closely resembles the ones created in the article, I suppose there must be a reason for that method to be used instead, or something I missed that makes this method unsuitable here.
Speaking of which, I would be interested to see how all these operations fair against compiler-specific implementations (as well as the comparisons between different compilers). [3]. The article only briefly mentioned their multiplication method is similar for the builtin `__uint128_t` [4], but did not go into detail or mention similarities/differences with their implementation of the other arithmetic operations.
[3] I suppose I could see for myself using godbolt, but I would like to see some commentary/discussion on this.
[4] And did not state for which compiler, though by context, I suppose it would be MSVC?
> I would use std::uint64_t which guarantees a type of that size, provided it is supported.
The comment on the typedef points out that the signature of intrinsics uses `unsigned long long`, though he incorrectly states that `uint64_t` is `unsigned long` - which isn't true, as long is only guaranteed to be at least 32-bits and at least as large as `int`. In ILP64 and LLP64 for example, `long` is only 32-bits.
I don't think this really matters anyway. `long long` is 64-bits on pretty much everything that matters, and he is using architecture-specific intrinsics in the code so it is not going to be portable anyway.
If some future arch had 128-bit hardware integers and a data model where `long long` is 128-bits, we wouldn't need this code at all, as we would just use the hardware support for 128-bits.
But I agree that `uint64_t` is the correct type to use for the definition of `u128`, if we wanted to guarantee it occupies the same storage. The width-specific intrinsics should also use this type.
> I would be interested to see how all these operations fair against compiler-specific implementations
There's a godbolt link at the top of the article which has the comparison. The resulting assembly is basically equivalent to the built-in support.
Since they don't calculate the upper 128-bits of the product, they use only 3 multiplications anyway.
You are right. Not sure how I missed/forgot that. In fact, I think the entire reason I was reminded of the algorithm was because I saw the words "3 multiplications" in the article in the first place. Perhaps I need more coffee...
Makes me think of the bad old days where the platform gave you 8-bit ints and you built everything else yourself... or AVR-8.
I guess modern compilers (meaning anything Arduino era and up, at least when I first got into them maybe mid 2010s) abstract that away, because while true that it's doing that under the hood we at least don't have to worry about it.
Tangential. A long time ago at a company far far away, this is how we did UUIDs that made up a TenantId and a UserId, using this exact same logic, minus the arithmetic. Great stuff.
(We wanted something UUID like but deterministic that we could easily decompose and do RBAC with, this was prior to the invention of JWT’s, OAuth, and scopes, worked at the time).
> On division: There is no neat codegen for division.
Wait, what? I'm fairly certain that you can do a 128-bit by 128-bit division using a x64's 128-bit by 64-bit division instruction that gives you only 64-bit quotient and remainder. The trick is to pre-multiply both dividend and divisor by a large enough power of 2 so that the "partial" quotient and remainders that the hardware instruction would need to produce will fit into 64 bits. On the whole, IIRC you need either 1 or 2 division instructions, depending on how large the divisor is (if it's too small, you need two divisions).
> we use 256-bit integers in our hot paths and go up to 564 bits for certain edge cases.
Why 564 bits? That’s 70.5 bytes.
Maybe it's a typo for 512. I'm not even sure how you would achieve 564 in this context.
GCC alread has this for x64, I thought. https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/_005f_005fint128.html
RISC-V has no carry bit and this whole thing becomes awkward.
I am under the impression that boost::multiprecision has specialized templates for 128 and 256 bit math, but maybe I'm wrong. In practice when I've wanted extended precision, I've just used GMP or a language with bignums.
I would expect the best x86 machine code for many 128 bit operations would use XMM instructions, no? But I haven't investigated.
Question for those smarter than me: What is an application for an int128 type anyways? I've never personally needed it, and I laughed at RISC-V for emphasizing that early on rather than... standardizing packed SIMD.
Any application which uses arithmetic on 64bit ints, because most operations can overflow. And most libs/compilers don't check for overflows.
Cryptography would be one application. Many crypto libraries use an arbitrary size `bigint` type, but the algorithms typically use modular arithmetic on some fixed width types (128-bit, 256-bit, 512-bit, or some in-between like 384-bits).
They're typically implemented with arrays of 64-bit or 32-bit unsigned integers, but if 128-bits were available in hardware, we could get a performance boost. Any arbitrary precision integer library would benefit from 128-bit hardware integers.
I suppose that makes sense -- though SIMD seems more useful for accelerating a lot of crypto?
SIMD is for performing parallel operations on many smaller types. It can help with some cryptography, but It doesn't necessarily help when performing single arithmetic operations on larger types. Though it does help when performing logic and shift operations on larger types.
If we were performing 128-bit arithmetic in parallel over many values, then a SIMD implementation may help, but without a SIMD equivalent of `addcarry`, there's a limit to how much it can help.
Something like this could potentially be added to AVX-512 for example by utilizing the `k` mask registers for the carries.
The best we have currently is `adcx` and `adox` which let us use two interleaved addcarry chains, where one utilizes the carry flag and the other utilizes the overflow flag, which improves ILP. These instructions are quite niche but are used in bigint libraries to improve performance.
I implemented a rational number library for media timestamps (think CMTime, AVRational, etc.) that uses 64-bit numerators and denominators. It uses 128-bit integers for intermediate operations when adding, subtracting, multiplying, etc. It even uses 128-bit floats (represented as 2 doubles and using double-double arithmetic[1]) for some approximation operations and even 192-bit integers in one spot (IIRC it's multiplying a 128-bit and 64-bit ints and I just want the high bits so it shifts back down to 128 bits immediately after the multiplication).
I keep meaning to see if work will let me open source it.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadruple-precision_floating-p...
The last time I used one I wanted UNIX timestamps + fractional seconds. Since there was no difference between adding 1 bit or 64, I just gave it 32 bits for the fraction and 32 more bits for the integral part.
I made a time sync library over local network that had to be more precise than NTP and used i128 to make sure the i64 math I was doing couldn't overflow.
I32 didn't cover enough time span and f64 has edge cases from the nature of floats. This was for Windows (MACC not GCC) so I had to roll out my own i128.
It's used fairly frequently (e.g. in turning 64 bit division into multiplication and shifts).
It's an opaque way to hold a GUID or an IP6 address
Intersection calculations from computational geometry. Intersection calculations generally require about 2*n+log2(n) bits.
If you like your CAD accurate, you have to operate in integer space.
I am so happy that MSVC added 128 bit integers to their standard library in order to do ranges distance of uint64_t iota views. One type alias away from int128's on most machines running gcc/clang/msvc
I understand why a non-standard compiler-specific implementation of int128 was not used (Besides being compiler specific, the point of the article is to walk through an implementation of it), but why use
> using u64 = unsigned long long;
? Although in practice, this is _usually_ an unsigned 64 bit integer, the C++ Standard does not technically guarantee this, all it says is that the type need to be _at least_ 64 bits. [0]
I would use std::uint64_t which guarantees a type of that size, provided it is supported. [1]
Re: Multiplication: regrouping our u64 digits
I am aware more advanced and faster algorithms exist, but I wonder if something simple like Karatsuba's Algorithm [2] which uses 3 multiplications instead of 4, could be a quick win for performance over the naive method used in the article. Though since it was mentioned that the compiler-specific unsigned 128 integers more closely resembles the ones created in the article, I suppose there must be a reason for that method to be used instead, or something I missed that makes this method unsuitable here.
Speaking of which, I would be interested to see how all these operations fair against compiler-specific implementations (as well as the comparisons between different compilers). [3]. The article only briefly mentioned their multiplication method is similar for the builtin `__uint128_t` [4], but did not go into detail or mention similarities/differences with their implementation of the other arithmetic operations.
[0] https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/types.html The official standard needs to be purchased, which is why I did not reference that. But it should be under the section basic.fundamental
[1] https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/integer.html
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karatsuba_algorithm
[3] I suppose I could see for myself using godbolt, but I would like to see some commentary/discussion on this.
[4] And did not state for which compiler, though by context, I suppose it would be MSVC?
> I would use std::uint64_t which guarantees a type of that size, provided it is supported.
The comment on the typedef points out that the signature of intrinsics uses `unsigned long long`, though he incorrectly states that `uint64_t` is `unsigned long` - which isn't true, as long is only guaranteed to be at least 32-bits and at least as large as `int`. In ILP64 and LLP64 for example, `long` is only 32-bits.
I don't think this really matters anyway. `long long` is 64-bits on pretty much everything that matters, and he is using architecture-specific intrinsics in the code so it is not going to be portable anyway.
If some future arch had 128-bit hardware integers and a data model where `long long` is 128-bits, we wouldn't need this code at all, as we would just use the hardware support for 128-bits.
But I agree that `uint64_t` is the correct type to use for the definition of `u128`, if we wanted to guarantee it occupies the same storage. The width-specific intrinsics should also use this type.
> I would be interested to see how all these operations fair against compiler-specific implementations
There's a godbolt link at the top of the article which has the comparison. The resulting assembly is basically equivalent to the built-in support.
Since they don't calculate the upper 128-bits of the product, they use only 3 multiplications anyway.
You are right. Not sure how I missed/forgot that. In fact, I think the entire reason I was reminded of the algorithm was because I saw the words "3 multiplications" in the article in the first place. Perhaps I need more coffee...
Makes me think of the bad old days where the platform gave you 8-bit ints and you built everything else yourself... or AVR-8.
I guess modern compilers (meaning anything Arduino era and up, at least when I first got into them maybe mid 2010s) abstract that away, because while true that it's doing that under the hood we at least don't have to worry about it.
Tangential. A long time ago at a company far far away, this is how we did UUIDs that made up a TenantId and a UserId, using this exact same logic, minus the arithmetic. Great stuff.
(We wanted something UUID like but deterministic that we could easily decompose and do RBAC with, this was prior to the invention of JWT’s, OAuth, and scopes, worked at the time).
> On division: There is no neat codegen for division.
Wait, what? I'm fairly certain that you can do a 128-bit by 128-bit division using a x64's 128-bit by 64-bit division instruction that gives you only 64-bit quotient and remainder. The trick is to pre-multiply both dividend and divisor by a large enough power of 2 so that the "partial" quotient and remainders that the hardware instruction would need to produce will fit into 64 bits. On the whole, IIRC you need either 1 or 2 division instructions, depending on how large the divisor is (if it's too small, you need two divisions).
> we use 256-bit integers in our hot paths and go up to 564 bits for certain edge cases.
Why 564 bits? That’s 70.5 bytes.
Maybe it's a typo for 512. I'm not even sure how you would achieve 564 in this context.
It was a nice, round number.