How to get better at guitar

I'm a jazz musician, and my kids are both professional classical players. I've asked them why they don't learn to play jazz. My daughter described pretty much what Glass is saying here. She calls it "fear of sucking." She knows what good jazz improvisation sounds like, and trying to make herself do it is pretty discouraging.

Not that there's anything wrong with loving and playing classical music, which is a factor too.

This may be why it's different when you start very young. You're not conscious of your own sucking, you just play, usually in a setting where everybody's congratulating you. For sucking. ;-)

I started on classical, and got into jazz by accident, as a bassist. It turns out that you can function in a band as a bassist without having to improvise very much, so I was able to learn at my own pace and eventually did. In fact a lot of good jazz players started out in school jazz bands or large ensembles where you didn't have to be a good improviser right up front.

I was at a dance hall the other day, and this young lady came floating in. It's hard to describe how she walked - just like she was effortlessly gliding. It looks easy, but anyone else would look like a moose trying it.

It's the result of a lifetime of ballet dancing. Probably 10,000 hours, at least.

I was just in awe.

A lot of us don't turn out to be professional musicians, writers or athletes. In between family and work, you start to realize how much these people put in to be at the top of their game. Time and effort you can't really put in if you didn't make the jump and have other life commitments.

I guess that's why a lot of people grow old wondering what life would have been if they would have followed through on whatever talent they appeared to possess in youth.

Stephen King said something similar (but I'm sure I'm misquoting): Every writer begins with one million terrible words inside them. The sooner you get those words out, the sooner you get to the good stuff.

> Most people won't be able to keep at it

I always tell people the secret to learning guitar fast is to practice for a minimum of 5 minutes a every day for 20 years. It's simultaneously a gross oversimplification while also literally being the only way to do it.

I think another aspect is regarding fundamentals. In order to stay engaged in the early years, you will skip over the minutia. But to achieve the next level, you must go back and drill the fundamentals, unlearning any bad habits in the process. Only then, once you’ve “learned the rules”, can you then surpass/break them.

I just started photography last year and it makes much sense. This and: - do it with intention, to copy or simulate to learn how to do what you want. If you just go out and take random pictures you will not learn much. If you go and try to simulate some style, lightning, you learn a lot. I also think most of my pictures really suck even if i try. But then i look on pictures of someone who has "photographer" in profile with couple thousand subscribers and most of their pictures also suck. I hope one day to bridge the gap.

This works for programming as well. I’ve spent countless hours reimplementing things or cloning things just to learn how they work. Sometimes mine is better than the original, sometimes it’s not. But regardless, I learn a lot along the way and occasionally get to teach something as well. It’s a great way to learn new languages, new concepts, new systems.

Yes, the struggle is kind of the whole point

Are you implying some people don't have taste, or less of it?

I like to call it interest. What makes something interesting to some that I'm not sure.

That reminds me of an interview I heard with comicbook artist Chip Zdarsky. He was talking about how we all love to draw as kids, but eventually around 10 years old or so we start to become aware that what we see in our heads isn't anywhere near what's appearing on the page in our drawings, and that gap acts as a powerful filter discouraging most people from pursuing art any further.

I've picked up a couple languages relatively easily and I 100% attribute it to the fact that I have no shame - zero

I will speak in my ugly, broken, American accent and do it til I improve. I didn't read about this technique in a book or anything, I simply mirrored what I saw kids do and IMO a big reason kids do well with picking up language (aside from all the physiological stuff) is that they actual speak it - they aren't concerned about whether it sounds like baby talk or not

A lot of advice feels trite and cliche, like keep trying, etc - but often times it takes repetition and hearing the message in many different ways before it sinks. As a tangent - this is the value i found in therapy too - a great therapist that was patient and consistent in their messaging day in and day out eventually led to some of what they said sinking in.

Do you know the source for this quote? I would love to read more, if there is more.

Hey, just wanted to say I really love your software and it was a pleasure finding out that you guys are active on HN (I remember your ASCII tabs post). It's very pleasant to use, especially with the sync mode to help play over tabs I have with the official music video. Cheers

I just recently discovered Soundslice after decades of transcribing with various tools and libraries. They worked butyour tool puts everything together so well. Immediately subscribed. Thank you for making this tool. Cheers.

The core value of transcription isn't the friction itself, it's the attention: looping, listening closely, testing hypotheses, correcting yourself

I'm actually trying to build something similar to this for personal use, not as a product. What did you find was the most difficult technical step when building? I'm finding it particularly challenging to separate rhythm and lead guitar parts (both in terms of stem separation and also when transcribing by ear).

How have i never heard about this, will definitely give a try. What about a DAW integrated transcription tool, as a VST maybe, is it too niche? This is something i always wanted and never really found in the capacity i needed, essentially doing what soundslice does both track per track and also having the full score, most tools available try to convert to midi via usual methods or do some mumbo-jumbo AI to write the score. Since 90% of recording musicians time is spent on a DAW and sometimes having everything in the box streamlines the work a lot.

That’s it.

The individual who has a breakthrough often feels compelled to call it a “system” and start telling others about it.

The great advice someone has is just what worked for them. It will probably work for others, especially if it repeats common advice, but it won’t work for everyone.

I'd see this less as "the way" and more as a really powerful tool that some people discover earlier than others

I can’t imagine stopping every note. I think it is pretty good practice for me to never stop if one can avoid it.

I used to stop all the time, when I made a mistake, between repetitions, when I finished the piece.

I agree about ear to fretboard.

Everyone learns different, but there is something universal in music that is essential to mastering an instrument. You should be able to hear something in your head and then play it. The goal is there is no barrier between your thoughts and actions. Learning to play by ear like that is the best way to get there in pretty much all instances. Looking up tabs is still great, and you can learn a ton from that (huh? another song with G, C, and D, I wonder why? Is it similar to the C, F, and G songs I'm playing?) but if you want to get next level that is the best way. I am a guitar play and I was in a band with another guitar player. I had a music minor, thousands of hours of practice and knew my theory inside and out. The other guitar player barely knew any theory but was way better than me and one of the best guitar players I've ever heard. He could just play. He didn't need to know the theory, he could hear it in his head.

I started playing electric bass in college, around 1984. I too used the record and lifting the needle technique. The only reason I'm commenting is that early on I learned a LOT of Police songs. Why? Because

(1) the songs were already in my head,

(2) Sting would have two or three cool hooks per song, and this is the important part,

(3) the hooks would played over and over during the song. That meant I could play the song all the way through and get to practice each riff 10 times or more with just a single needle lift.

A prime example: Demolition Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf7To6vdg7A)

> Probably almost any method is effective at learning guitar, as long as it includes the key factor - time spent practicing.

There are a few pedagogical points here to keep in mind:

first, there are local maxima in terms of learning something like guitar where you get bad habits and the only way to progress is to undo them.

Also, different ways of learning have different values in terms of what goals you're aiming towards and very importantly what kind of practice will keep you motivated in a sustainable way. Sometimes, taking shortcuts in some ways means you might slow down your growth rate but you'll have better overall growth because you'll keep at it for longer

> as long as it includes the key factor - time spent practicing.

And at least for me, frequency beats duration. I make more progress when I play consistently for even 10 minutes every day than when I play for 90 minutes on Sunday afternoon.

Add some distance and sensitivity. I used blunt / brute force repetitions and somehow wasted years. Music is very subtle, and keeping a focus on small details is worth thousands of hours.

My music teacher said that practice does not produce perfection, only perfect practice produces perfection.

If you mess up, redo the part you messed up correctly 5 times in a row.

And, don't just practice the easy stuff. You have to challenge yourself to grow.

That's called ear training and it's crucial. I don't think all ways one can play and call it "practice" are equal

Another 10/10 free course is Scotty West’s Absolutely Understand Guitar on YouTube. Filmed in the 90s and it’s still one of the best classes out there.

I second that. Switched to piano, however there is no better course for a quitar than Justin's.

It depends on what your goals are. If you're doing it for fun or as a creative outlet this is great advice. If you're trying to actively get better you won't do it this way after a certain point. You need to be actively practicing and engaging your brain. It does matter what you play and how you play it.

> I'd just start with learning all the notes on the fretboard, [...] and scale shapes

This is not as simple as it sounds. It seems, from my experience of learning a guitar and observing others, that there is something inherently illogical how tonality changes between strings. There are two main ways to do it, either you remember by memory, or you simply hear what happens. Both are hard for average beginner, because it just doesn't make sense.

After I have been practicing a guitar for quite some time I started learning a piano for some reason, and seeing the keys in front of me it all made sense instantly

> With that said, If I could go back, I'd just start with learning all the notes on the fretboard, all the basic chord and scale shapes. It's actually not that hard, but you need motivation.

I agree, but if the guitar is someone's first instrument it may also be their only creative outlet or seen as a means to an end. They're almost guaranteed to do what you did and probably even skip the lessons.

I think the physical act of playing an instrument is very overrated, and music education is underrated. Even just a few years of putting kids in the school band goes a long way. Being familiar with sightreading and basic music theory sounds boring, but it makes everything else a breeze when they want to learn something on their own.

Of course, there are also tons of people who were in a bad program and it was worse than nothing for their motivation. That's another topic though.

Having learned guitar in a way that's somewhat similar to what's outlined in this article, I will say that someone doing this transcription-based method will likely naturally consolidate their "making tabs" into "making chords" pretty quickly, because the patterns occur often enough. I'd also say that producing your own tabs is very far away from a being a mere tab-consumer, it's just a natural introductory medium because tabs are very easily digestible to a beginner and, as you say, satisfy the craving.

I think that starting off with easy songs, and with enough brute force as you scale up, you can become organically familiar with these concepts to make the educated guesses you're talking about.

Many renowned musicians were able to effectively create music utilising these concepts despite never formally learning music theory, and by just learning by ear.

Learning formal music theory helped me a lot when I was a teenager playing guitar and piano, and having absorbed all that theory more than fifty years ago helps me to continue enjoy playing and improvising music now.

But over the years I realized that there were gaps in the Western classical theory I studied.

A relatively small one is that I never systematically studied jazz harmony, and I still don’t have a good sense for it. I can’t make my improvisations sound like jazz even if I try.

Another, bigger gap is rhythm: I have listened over the years to music from all over the world with interesting and complex rhythms, but I cannot explain those rhythms or reproduce them. The classical notation and theory I learned is not up to that task, either.

The biggest gap, in my mind, is my lack of exposure to any formal theory of melody. I like good melodies, I think I have a sense of some features that separate good melodies from drab ones, I think I am able to create pretty good melodies, but that all came from listening and experimentation and playing. I once (again, more than fifty years ago) looked through some music theory books in my college library that covered melody, but I didn’t get anything useful out of them.

The videos on music theory that crop up on my YouTube feed all seem to be about chords and scales. Maybe some music influencers should start producing in-depth content on rhythm and melody, too.

> you haven't played enough to recognize the difference

I think the key bit here is that this is aimed at someone who is proficient, but not "good" ie can play tab, but not much else.

I think its perfectly possible to transcribe if you don't "know" musical theory, but for guitar, you should need to know chord shapes.

The key or mode is probably not actually that important, because you are transcribing rather then improvising. Obviously it will reduce the search space considerably if you do know what key/mode its in.

But you'd be surprised at how much musical theory is innate, or at lease learnt through listening.

> To write tabs, you'll need to be able to make an educated guess at what's being played.

Knowing the theory certainly makes the process faster because you'll recognize patterns, but you can definitely work through most songs without knowing anything about music theory. Just pick up your guitar, slow the track down and try to reproduce the tones.

Back when I first started playing guitar, my teacher had me transcribe the melody to Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (from memory). I didn't even know the major scale at that point, but by trial and error I improved my intuition for translating melodies in my head to the fretboard, which is remarkably useful as a guitarist, not only for improvisation, but for composition as well.

That's not to say that knowing music theory isn't helpful in transcribing and in general, but I wouldn't say it's a prerequisite. A lot of my foundation in music theory came from transcribing first and putting things together afterwards.

This is also one of those things that varies with the individual. When I was a kid taking cello lessons, I learned to play by ear. For classical students, theory doesn't really start until college.

I know very little theory, but I've been playing jazz for almost 50 years, and I know hundreds of melodies along with enough of their harmonies to improvise and accompany other players. Many people pick up tunes from the radio or hymns at church, even if they don't play an instrument.

I think a helpful tip for ear training is that you can do it without an instrument, just by hearing stuff (tunes, rhythms, accompanying parts) and trying to sing along. For beginners, this avoids the awkwardness of the instrument and its technique getting in the way.

If you develop your ear and learn your way around your instrument, then you can learn to play along by ear and then just write down what you're doing.

You can figure it out by ear with music theory. You use different terms but who cares. Theory is useful of course but not required.

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The percussionist Trilok Gurtu has said the same thing about listening to many recordings as he was growing up. He just assumed that all the percussion was played by one person, all at once, and so he figured out ways to do it, even when it was 2 or even 3 people with overdubs.

Tommy drew a lot of inspiration from Chet Atkins who was really the pioneer of the bass+guitar "one hand band" style of playing. Tommy just improved on it a lot, adding more rhythmic elements, but to your point, yes, he was largely self-taught and driven to learn.

A good interview on his background: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py4T1qv9bnQ

He tells it everywhere. (Also demonstrates the thumb vs fingers playing independently everywhere.)

"Keys" and "note names" literally only come up on the guitar when playing open strings. When playing fretted notes, the guitar is a completely relative instrument. You should focus on learning diatonic patterns of tones and semitones on the fretboard directly, not individual notes. It's a completely different method than the piano keyboard, which involves working within a fixed diatonic framework, and altering it to make "transposition" work. This meshes well with solfège and even more so with historical solmization, which are also highly relative methods (being intended originally for the voice).

Curious to know more: Where are you doing your interdisciplinary PhD in music + CS?

Thanks

I've also been using transcribe for over a decade and can vouch for how great it is for learning music and transcribing by ear. Irreplacable for my workflow.

Same for me. It came recommended by my upright bass teacher. I used to transcribe all songs that way.

Recently, I've been lazy and learn new songs by watching players on YouTube.

When you are transcribing a guitar part you have to think about the key, the chords, and how to play the part efficiently. It's a great way to get a better understanding of the neck since there is usually more than one way to play a part.

Had a lot of fun contributing tabs to Ultimate Guitar, esp. when folks would write notes of appreciation. The harder the better - not cheating to slow down the track to understand rapid lick in solos (the Steely Dan ones were a gas) either. You lose a little bit of the magic (little is off limits with some practice) but the fact that you can figure out your favorite tracks and imagine yourself up on stage is fun.

Interestingly, when learning Morse code, many will tell you to learn it at the speed you'll be using it. The theory is it's easier to overcome the hurdle and learn the faster speed, rather than relearn each speed as you ramp up.

However, this creates a higher barrier to entry that only the truly dedicated will overcome.

Same, I finally managed to stick with learning standard notation this year after several false starts and I’m kicking myself I didn’t start earlier. There were a few tough moments where it seemed like I’d never get (learning about key signatures, moving past 1st position) but now I’m starting to get comfortable playing up to the 7th position. It’s so nice being able to just buy a big book of Sor or Giuliani or Carcassi studies or even some Bach transcriptions and play them straight out of the book instead of needing to listen to a performance first and then look at the tab.

I'm working on becoming a better piano player and forcing myself to read sheet music. To your point, it's incredibly difficult. To the point that I'm 50/50 about whether I'll ever get good enough for it to matter. I'm learning songs, but in nearly every case I'm mostly memorizing the song. It's really frustrating.

I've been advised to use a keyboard to record my playing without being able to hear it and playing straight from the sheet music. I haven't tried it yet though.

There should be a saying like "A tool is not the task" similar to "A map is not the land." As professional tool makers it can be easy to replace the task with a tool in theory, but that's not reality.

In a similar vein I think that's why there are so many devs making game engines instead of games.

No need for absolute pitch. All you need is relative pitch. You play a note, compare to the note you heard, maybe even play them at the same time. And then change the note till you find the right one.

I thought the same for a long time and it really discouraged me. My natural pitch recognition is pretty bad. What helped was starting with very simple melodies and songs, so I could get familiar with the most common movements. That made it easier to figure out progressions, because I learned how to narrow down the options. I’m still not great at it, but I keep improving. That’s why I think it’s trainable.

And because she does less things in her day? Letting the brain process the instrument playing during day and night, not a bunch of other stuff. I’m sure brain age matters a lot but I think it’s a bit overrated. Probably a lot to do with environment as well.

Old Love is such a good song.

It’s in the way that you use it, boy don’t you know.

Similarly, Ben Travers didn't have a delay pedal, so learned to pick the delayed parts on Pink Floyd's "Run like hell" when he was younger, since taken to ludicrous speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CY0_HG8J5M

Nope, the point is collecting as many guitars as possible. ;)

I wish this was a joke. :D :(

as somebody who practices from tabs I have no idea how I would begin doing this.

I'm still an amateur and always had problems with this, got some advice from an experienced jazz pianist I know. His suggestions were roughly to:

1. Start by transcribing the root note that you hear

2. Go back and see if each chord sounds major or minor - most of the time that will give you a major/minor third

3. Go back and play the 5th, and see if it sounds right - most of the time it'll be there

4. Don't worry about 7ths/9ths yet, they'll come, but give them a go

5. Once you've got a few chords, try and figure out the key, and that will help figure out others

So he was basically suggesting to transcribe by each note's function in a chord, starting with most -> least important. It still needs some music theory of course, but doesn't need you to listen to an entire complex chord at once.

This is a great way of phrasing it -- ROI. My mom is a violin teacher and when I asked her if I could learn, she said "no, you don't have the hands for it". She recommended something like guitar would be better for me.

Not everyone can do everything, nor is everything a good return on investment. If you tell people they can do whatever they want, you are effectively wasting their time. Better to give them some useful advice, e.g. your fingers are better for the guitar, rather than insisting everyone can do everything.

It is hard.

I can hear a tune and immediately sing it or whistle it. But I can't immediately play it on the guitar. It's much easier for children than adults.

It's also hard to force yourself to practice the relevant skills. You can play scales all day but that won't necessarily help your ear. What you need is to force your brain to make the connection.

I mean, it kind of sounds like you hated the whole process and didn't care about the result either. What was your reason for taking up the guitar as a hobby in the first place?

I suspect it's actually impossible to get reasonably good at something without some amount of passion for it, to some degree or another. Most musicians are in it for the thrill of learning something that most people find hard to do, or because they love music, or because they want to be part of a community that values music. Occasionally because they think they can make money at it.

I play an instrument or two, but only for fun. I love music, but I'm at a point in my life where I will never be good enough to be in a band. I have enough other hobbies anyway. I take a random 15 minutes out of my day to play a few songs, maybe practice a new song I'm learning, watch a short Youtube video about it here and there, and that's enough for me.

Why did you continue playing for over a decade?

You're getting dunked on a little bit in the replies, but your point of view is important for people to read. Not everyone is capable of learning every skill, and practice is necessary but insufficient. I've been on and off trying to learn a foreign language for decades, and it just doesn't click, no matter what I try (formal lessons, immersion, book study, apps). I used to have the "Just practice, bro" attitude, but I've done a 180 over the years and I have a lot of empathy and understanding now when my own kid complains "I just can't learn this."

I'm a new player so I'm not asking this to be snarky but to understand. How can you think you don't need chords? It seems to me, 5 months into my journey, that chords are a fundamental aspect of guitar. It sounds like someone taking up golf but saying they don't need putts. Can you help me understand?

this is pretty sad

The prerequisite to starting is having a working instrument (roughly) in tune. Then you can start. If you don't know absolutely anything at all, then it wouldn't be so bad to learn some things in parallel to learning by ear, such as basic chord shapes. But you can get started with trying to transcribe happy birthday by ear. Try to play it and find the notes. After a few nusrsery rhymes, you can move on to something simple that is perhaps more inspiring. But to answer your question, you start by taking the first step.

The interesting thing that is not obvious to the general public (it certainly wasn't to me when I started) is that unless there is a medical condition that is extremel rare called cogential amusia, you can develop the skill. It's not easy, and some people definitely have more natural ability but it's learnable. You likely don't have amusia, as people that do have it have a hard time recognizing an instrumental section of a song. If you can recognize 'happy birthday' by someone humming the melody, you don't have it.

There are a bunch of ear training quizzes online and I believe also YouTube videos.

I don't think this is a general requirement for learning the guitar. It's just one aspect. For most people whether you can hear that something is a 3rd or a 5th shouldn't impact their ability to play songs and have fun on the guitar. A sense of rhythm is maybe more important. If you can whistle a tune or sing along anywhere close to a song you're probably ok.

You can develop the ear. Start simpler. Try nursery rhymes.