Last I heard a number of years ago it’s around $2000/sq ft. Around the same price scale as mid range LED wall modules.
> "Oceans" is a kinetic sculpture that embodies the dynamism of the world's oceans within the arid landscape of Las Vegas. Crafted from 483 motorized elements known as "Brixels," this piece mimics the movement of the sea's surface. The sculpture is alive with the pulse of the planet's waters, ...
All I can see are bars of gold.
I agree... it's gorgeous, but it's missing the ocean's colors.
It is so sad to see both this and the title "It's ok to abandon your side project" on the front page while I have three flipdisc displays sitting in the basement without the time and equipment to get them up and running.
No, it's not ok to abandon those flipdisc displays! :(
Admittedly I read neither of the articles. But who doesn't sometimes get caught up in the conincidence of titles on here may vote me down :D
Unless you've thrown everything away, your side project isn't abandoned, it's reprioritized.
There is a fairly impressive installation of these at Heathrow airport in Terminal 5 outside the BA lounges. Struggling to find a decent video on YouTube, but this one’s not terrible https://youtu.be/G03WA30yFMI?si=hx5aLlrj_BH21yr2
The Climate Pledge Arena in Seattle has an installation too:
I did the same for my office and bought used LAWO flipdot panels for this. Screenshot of the thing here: https://github.com/aivju/flipdotz
If I’m not mistaken (their pricing is a bit hard to find), nine of the flip fits display modules will set you back ~$5000 alone, plus the rest of the hardware. While I love the idea that is a lot of fun budget for other projects…
Thanks, I've been looking for that. Interesting how nowadays it's orders of magnitude cheaper to buy a 4k 65" panel and fake the dots (and sound) on it.
I recall a comment from somewhere that it was cheaper to put up a large monitor over a hole in the wall than to pay someone to patch it...
You can put an OLED TV over a hole in the wall and it's cheaper than getting someone to fix the drywall.
Haha, that actually sounds plausible, but, since monitors are backlit, your hole will be glowing.
Nobody outside a gas station wants a glowy hole.
They've been slowly replacing the flip-disc displays on the buses where I live with LEDs and LCD panels which has been such a shame. There is a beautiful mechanical satisfaction to a panel of flip-discs inverting and I genuinely find them easier to read.
They seemed less reliable than LEDs. When they were common here they would always have tens of dots stuck in the wrong position.
I'd imagine the vibrations didn't do them any good
Interestingly, I've never noticed any stuck discs. I'm pretty observant of them as well, because I think they're so cool.
The ones here could have been nearing the end of their life to be fair. They have basically all been replaced with LED signs now.
The Luminator MAX 3000 is an interesting hybrid between a flip dot display and an LED display. I find it very pleasing to the eye and easy to read, particularly at night.
In front of the flip dots is a frame that has a mini-LED that faces and front-lights each flip dot. This gives the appearance that each flip dot is glowing.
Yes, even the ones that have an LED behind each disk which are on in the dark. This display [1] is the same but in the dark [2] you see the LEDs instead.
The LED / LCD displays are probably lighter (less heavy), and someone figured they can save 0.001 gallons of diesel a year fleet wide if they replace displays.
Net Zero Fatigue is real.
Much more likely, I think, the mechanical displays had some maintenance cost which cheap LED displays will not.
You've confabulated a reason why they replaced them, linked it to initiative then complained about them doing it all in two sentences. A gold medal in mental gymnastics is warranted here!
They’re probably just cheaper and require less maintenance.
You’re not doing your cause any favors by projecting everything on an ill-fitting frame.
This is insanely cool, the noise they make is also really satisfying!
What was the cost/time breakdown of the entire project because the flipdisc prices are hidden behind quotes and it seems like it would take quite a lot of time to complete the whole display!
The prices I’ve seen mentioned are around USD$3-5 per “pixel”.
Similar to all the ePaper projects that show up here, they’re expensive but cool gimmicks.
Whole dollars per pixel is insane!
The whole mechanism looks very 3d printable... I wonder if one could design one with PCB coils and a large 3d print only? If so, cost could probably come down to cents per pixel...
You'd probably also need a single 'C' shaped piece of steel for the magnetic flux path, but you might be able to find a supplier for the right shape already used for something else you can buy in large quantities very cheaply (eg. Steel staples).
> as a pleasant bonus, they emit a sound like rain hitting a window each time one of the disc flips
must be vrey annoying very fast if you have to sit next to it all day
I suppose it would be much more quiet if the disc stops were magnetic with no actual contact, but that would add a lot of expense.
There’s a very large one of these at “Climate Pledge Arena” in Seattle. Perhaps 8 feet tall and 16 feet wide. Pretty cool, but stuck pixels are even more annoying when it makes you want to reach out and poke them.
I use quotes because it will always be the Colosseum to me, where I saw the Butthole Surfers, Dead Moon and Nirvana. Don’t get me started on the Kingdome.
That arena famously has dead pixels on its video boards hanging over the ice as well!
There's also the Atkinson dithering (made by Bill Atkinson) which produces very neat results.
I bought a flip dot display on eBay and now I am stuck with the old thing and my lack of knowledge to make it work. Here's a great resource about technical details (only German though) https://radow.org/flip-dot.php
EDIT: "They have high readability, a long lifespan, and achieves anywhere between 25-60fps" - I think you can't achieve 60fps with a flip dot display.
Depends how much power and noise you're willing for it to make!!
Remember that texas instruments DLP technology which is in use in pretty much every office/home cinema projector is effectively micro flip-dots micromachined in silicon, and that can operate at ~10,000 FPS.
With my rudimentary physics knowledge I'd think that smaller structures can be moved faster than bigger structures.
EDIT: also when you google a bit you can find a guy who maxed out flip dot displays at 30fps (which honestly I thought would not be possible either)
Uhm yeah they are a lot smaller. That makes a difference obviously.
Dunno where your link is going, but yeah I see the gif at the bottom of the article now.
Still, I wanna see and hear it on the display.
It's crazy that I was trying to find good resources for split flaps and then flip discs just yesterday and was just thinking, damn, there aren't any good or recent information about flip discs, just decade-old proprietary stuff to be found
Great work!
Popular in UK train stations until very recently. I suspect that there are still a few out there!
Damn, I really wish there was a T in "Quick jazzy vibe flows from exploding pixels", 'cause the sentence is just cool!
From the exploding pixels and then you're fine. You needed an H as well anyway.
The author mentions SubSpace (the computer game, from the 90s), and the limited pixel budget for player banners in it.
It would be interesting to see if you could run a pared-down version of that game on a display like this.
I wonder how small they can be. Would be an amazing watch display.
I'd like to see someone play DOOM (or any game, really) using that flip disc screen!
I was thinking of Bad Apple!![1], but maybe that's too niche.
You made me wonder just how often Touhou is even mentioned on HN, so I did a quick search and... less than 15 results! (not counting dupes).
Niche indeed...
That seems weird. Bad Apple is up there with doom in terms of "make it run", and a few high profile-ish hackers seem to enjoy touhou stuff (drew devault off the top of my head)
Tetris seems like a good fit -- given the frame to frame changes are minimal adjacent pixels, the responsiveness should be acceptable
I would love to see the cost of the whole hardware mentioned. I guess it would be around a 1000USD
Lookmumnocomputer did some nice work for thismuseumisnotobsolete with flip displays.
See on YouTube or visit in person
If you're into electromechanical machines, he also has a working telephone exchange and a bunch of videos where he restores its various components and explains how it works (I still don't quite understand how it works though). That's the original reason I subscribed to his channel, but his wild musical contraptions are also cool.
Is the last photo on that page, describing the cabling, a screenshot of another photo displayed using flipdiscs? that is a whole lot of discs!!
I think it's just a simulation of what it could look like if it were flipdiscs.
Technology is so cool and you're using it to build a mirror. Would have loved to see generative or other weird graphics.
Did you read the article? The author goes into several applications beyond just that.
I remember seeing those at the airport when I was a kid it was fascinating, one of the screens was close to the ground and I got over the chairs just curious how do they flip, now we have the boring soulless LEDs.
I have a question about those wire ferrules they said they were using:
I occasionally connect wires to terminals, but - I've never used ferrules: I just self-twist the thin strands, push the thing in, and use the lever or tightening screw depending on the terminal's mechanism.
Why would I use a ferrule? Or perhaps, under what circumstances is that advised?
The wire will crush over time and the connection will become looser. That will increase the resistance of the connection and in high current applications will cause heating. If you're really unlucky it will cause a fire.
Ferrules often have insulating shells around the base which are good strain relief.
Ferrules also evenly distribute the clamping force and prevent crushing of the strands.
Ferrules solve the problem of having to align the threads every time you re-post them in a terminal block.
Andrew Zolty under the artist name BREAKFAST has created quite a few stunning kinetic artworks with flipdisks.
Just one example: https://theartistbreakfast.com/works/traverse
Also created a larger more sculpted derivative the „brixel“ a rotating brick as pixel. Eg https://theartistbreakfast.com/works/oceans
This is the product they commercialized: https://flipdisc.co/
Last I heard a number of years ago it’s around $2000/sq ft. Around the same price scale as mid range LED wall modules.
> "Oceans" is a kinetic sculpture that embodies the dynamism of the world's oceans within the arid landscape of Las Vegas. Crafted from 483 motorized elements known as "Brixels," this piece mimics the movement of the sea's surface. The sculpture is alive with the pulse of the planet's waters, ...
All I can see are bars of gold.
I agree... it's gorgeous, but it's missing the ocean's colors.
It is so sad to see both this and the title "It's ok to abandon your side project" on the front page while I have three flipdisc displays sitting in the basement without the time and equipment to get them up and running.
No, it's not ok to abandon those flipdisc displays! :(
Admittedly I read neither of the articles. But who doesn't sometimes get caught up in the conincidence of titles on here may vote me down :D
Unless you've thrown everything away, your side project isn't abandoned, it's reprioritized.
There is a fairly impressive installation of these at Heathrow airport in Terminal 5 outside the BA lounges. Struggling to find a decent video on YouTube, but this one’s not terrible https://youtu.be/G03WA30yFMI?si=hx5aLlrj_BH21yr2
The Climate Pledge Arena in Seattle has an installation too:
https://www.pippakelmenson.com/work/climate-pledge-arena
https://www.coleorloff.com/specifically/pitchbook
https://www.behance.net/gallery/136172923/Climate-Pledge-Are...
I did the same for my office and bought used LAWO flipdot panels for this. Screenshot of the thing here: https://github.com/aivju/flipdotz
If I’m not mistaken (their pricing is a bit hard to find), nine of the flip fits display modules will set you back ~$5000 alone, plus the rest of the hardware. While I love the idea that is a lot of fun budget for other projects…
Thanks, I've been looking for that. Interesting how nowadays it's orders of magnitude cheaper to buy a 4k 65" panel and fake the dots (and sound) on it.
I recall a comment from somewhere that it was cheaper to put up a large monitor over a hole in the wall than to pay someone to patch it...
You can put an OLED TV over a hole in the wall and it's cheaper than getting someone to fix the drywall.
Haha, that actually sounds plausible, but, since monitors are backlit, your hole will be glowing.
Nobody outside a gas station wants a glowy hole.
They've been slowly replacing the flip-disc displays on the buses where I live with LEDs and LCD panels which has been such a shame. There is a beautiful mechanical satisfaction to a panel of flip-discs inverting and I genuinely find them easier to read.
They seemed less reliable than LEDs. When they were common here they would always have tens of dots stuck in the wrong position.
I'd imagine the vibrations didn't do them any good
Interestingly, I've never noticed any stuck discs. I'm pretty observant of them as well, because I think they're so cool.
The ones here could have been nearing the end of their life to be fair. They have basically all been replaced with LED signs now.
The Luminator MAX 3000 is an interesting hybrid between a flip dot display and an LED display. I find it very pleasing to the eye and easy to read, particularly at night.
In front of the flip dots is a frame that has a mini-LED that faces and front-lights each flip dot. This gives the appearance that each flip dot is glowing.
(1) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ru1DSs1tjQ
Yes, even the ones that have an LED behind each disk which are on in the dark. This display [1] is the same but in the dark [2] you see the LEDs instead.
[2] https://www.urban-transport-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/...
[1] https://cdn.unitycms.io/images/2padXosoqh99o13dcrN3co.jpg
The LED / LCD displays are probably lighter (less heavy), and someone figured they can save 0.001 gallons of diesel a year fleet wide if they replace displays.
Net Zero Fatigue is real.
Much more likely, I think, the mechanical displays had some maintenance cost which cheap LED displays will not.
You've confabulated a reason why they replaced them, linked it to initiative then complained about them doing it all in two sentences. A gold medal in mental gymnastics is warranted here!
They’re probably just cheaper and require less maintenance.
You’re not doing your cause any favors by projecting everything on an ill-fitting frame.
This is insanely cool, the noise they make is also really satisfying!
What was the cost/time breakdown of the entire project because the flipdisc prices are hidden behind quotes and it seems like it would take quite a lot of time to complete the whole display!
The prices I’ve seen mentioned are around USD$3-5 per “pixel”.
Similar to all the ePaper projects that show up here, they’re expensive but cool gimmicks.
Whole dollars per pixel is insane!
The whole mechanism looks very 3d printable... I wonder if one could design one with PCB coils and a large 3d print only? If so, cost could probably come down to cents per pixel...
You'd probably also need a single 'C' shaped piece of steel for the magnetic flux path, but you might be able to find a supplier for the right shape already used for something else you can buy in large quantities very cheaply (eg. Steel staples).
> as a pleasant bonus, they emit a sound like rain hitting a window each time one of the disc flips
must be vrey annoying very fast if you have to sit next to it all day
I suppose it would be much more quiet if the disc stops were magnetic with no actual contact, but that would add a lot of expense.
There’s a very large one of these at “Climate Pledge Arena” in Seattle. Perhaps 8 feet tall and 16 feet wide. Pretty cool, but stuck pixels are even more annoying when it makes you want to reach out and poke them.
I use quotes because it will always be the Colosseum to me, where I saw the Butthole Surfers, Dead Moon and Nirvana. Don’t get me started on the Kingdome.
That arena famously has dead pixels on its video boards hanging over the ice as well!
There's also the Atkinson dithering (made by Bill Atkinson) which produces very neat results.
I bought a flip dot display on eBay and now I am stuck with the old thing and my lack of knowledge to make it work. Here's a great resource about technical details (only German though) https://radow.org/flip-dot.php
EDIT: "They have high readability, a long lifespan, and achieves anywhere between 25-60fps" - I think you can't achieve 60fps with a flip dot display.
Depends how much power and noise you're willing for it to make!!
Remember that texas instruments DLP technology which is in use in pretty much every office/home cinema projector is effectively micro flip-dots micromachined in silicon, and that can operate at ~10,000 FPS.
With my rudimentary physics knowledge I'd think that smaller structures can be moved faster than bigger structures.
EDIT: also when you google a bit you can find a guy who maxed out flip dot displays at 30fps (which honestly I thought would not be possible either)
Uhm yeah they are a lot smaller. That makes a difference obviously.
Mikeselectricstuff did a 26minute deep dive into flipdots a few years ago which is worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u26N-pQY2U4
That display needs some Conway’s Game of Life action pronto.
they have a gif at the bottom of the article which looks like game of life
https://github.com/simpsoka/office-flipdisc/blob/main/scenes...
Dunno where your link is going, but yeah I see the gif at the bottom of the article now.
Still, I wanna see and hear it on the display.
It's crazy that I was trying to find good resources for split flaps and then flip discs just yesterday and was just thinking, damn, there aren't any good or recent information about flip discs, just decade-old proprietary stuff to be found Great work!
Popular in UK train stations until very recently. I suspect that there are still a few out there!
Damn, I really wish there was a T in "Quick jazzy vibe flows from exploding pixels", 'cause the sentence is just cool!
From the exploding pixels and then you're fine. You needed an H as well anyway.
The author mentions SubSpace (the computer game, from the 90s), and the limited pixel budget for player banners in it.
It would be interesting to see if you could run a pared-down version of that game on a display like this.
I wonder how small they can be. Would be an amazing watch display.
I'd like to see someone play DOOM (or any game, really) using that flip disc screen!
I was thinking of Bad Apple!![1], but maybe that's too niche.
1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtutLA63Cp8
You made me wonder just how often Touhou is even mentioned on HN, so I did a quick search and... less than 15 results! (not counting dupes).
Niche indeed...
That seems weird. Bad Apple is up there with doom in terms of "make it run", and a few high profile-ish hackers seem to enjoy touhou stuff (drew devault off the top of my head)
Someone on reddit did it: https://www.reddit.com/r/arduino/comments/1rcs8dc/flipdot_di...
I wonder if you could have it play the music as well by the right timing of flipping, just like how the Floppotron works.
Not niche enough :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NXSMdUH_Cg
The first thing I dig in the article was a search for "bad". Glad I'm not the only one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSeQucVAjLg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ6rfI28zJ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSdiop75jIg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQVp-srqRBY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJU2-1X8kHQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiFSnoJQU7I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWIKOjGXTEM
Tetris seems like a good fit -- given the frame to frame changes are minimal adjacent pixels, the responsiveness should be acceptable
I would love to see the cost of the whole hardware mentioned. I guess it would be around a 1000USD
Lookmumnocomputer did some nice work for thismuseumisnotobsolete with flip displays.
See on YouTube or visit in person
If you're into electromechanical machines, he also has a working telephone exchange and a bunch of videos where he restores its various components and explains how it works (I still don't quite understand how it works though). That's the original reason I subscribed to his channel, but his wild musical contraptions are also cool.
Is the last photo on that page, describing the cabling, a screenshot of another photo displayed using flipdiscs? that is a whole lot of discs!!
I think it's just a simulation of what it could look like if it were flipdiscs.
Technology is so cool and you're using it to build a mirror. Would have loved to see generative or other weird graphics.
Did you read the article? The author goes into several applications beyond just that.
I remember seeing those at the airport when I was a kid it was fascinating, one of the screens was close to the ground and I got over the chairs just curious how do they flip, now we have the boring soulless LEDs.
I have a question about those wire ferrules they said they were using:
I occasionally connect wires to terminals, but - I've never used ferrules: I just self-twist the thin strands, push the thing in, and use the lever or tightening screw depending on the terminal's mechanism.
Why would I use a ferrule? Or perhaps, under what circumstances is that advised?
PS - Link to the ferrules they mentioned: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R6QQ7MW/
The wire will crush over time and the connection will become looser. That will increase the resistance of the connection and in high current applications will cause heating. If you're really unlucky it will cause a fire.
Ferrules often have insulating shells around the base which are good strain relief.
Ferrules also evenly distribute the clamping force and prevent crushing of the strands.
Ferrules solve the problem of having to align the threads every time you re-post them in a terminal block.
[dead]