> more likely to get planning permission if their new skyscraper included a free public roof terrace
If that's the deal, it's crazy that some of those places are getting away with then discouraging the public from actually going there. Book your visit in advance! Present ID! Photography forbidden! This grumpy security guard will be hovering nearby <3
It's like Nathan For You S03E01 where a store advertises a $1 TV, then tells the drawn in would-be customers to please respect the black tie dress code, crawl through a tiny door, and squeeze past the alligator.
The problem is worse outside London, hotels in conservation areas that get planning for health clubs on the basis that locals can buy memberships too, then quietly withdrawn. A car park that should be open for public paid parking becomes private.
It's a fantastic idea, but enforcement sucks on intangible things like this. In a few years time I'm sure it will be 'closed for maintenance' then never reopen to the public or a nice restaurant will go up there and suddenly you'll need a restaurant booking to use the lift.
You must book in advance because they’re incredibly popular, huge queues, long waits, and capacity limits. The Sky Garden (Fenchurch Building) is huge, beautiful and absolutely packed with people. Many people consider it a London must visit.
Capacity may indeed be a reason for requiring advance bookings.
But it doesn't explain the ridiculous security (scanning gates, had to take off my hat and belt, insulin pump was inspected), the prohibition of "professional" photography equipment, prohibition of own food and drinks (again, diabetes, I want to carry some lemonade and a bar for emergency), etc etc.
Is it to counter terrorism? To boost consuming at the establishments? Or is it a lame excuse thats in reality just a higher bar to entry?
> Is it to counter terrorism?
They’re worried that if there was an incident they might get sued for having inadequate security.
I’ve spent a lot of time going to places with security like this (airports, museums etc) and getting a belt with plastic buckles (you can get them at outdoor clothing stores) saves a lot of hassle.
Have you visited The View from The Shard? A very expensive visit, with exactly the same security checks as Sky Garden. Security in tall buildings is high (even if that security is mostly theatre).
"Certain items cannot be brought into The View from The Shard including large bags and backpacks, over the size of 22 x 15 x 8 inches (55 x 38 x 20 cm) or other large equipment."
"We ask guests to walk through metal detectors, which use a low-frequency electromagnetic field to look for metal items."
This is also true for visitors to the offices located in the shard, it's very annoying to unload a overnight bag when trying to visit an office. I always wondered what the purpose was as regular employees skip the security queue
If you graph obesity and excess security, especially these "metal detectors", there is correlation, thus we should all sue.
>Is it to counter terrorism? To boost consuming at the establishments? Or is it a lame excuse thats in reality just a higher bar to entry?
Incentives align among all three.
Ok that one looks legit :)
I was thinking more about his experience with e.g. the last one on the page, Roof Garden at The Post Building:
> I still don't understand why it's here nor why it's open daily, nor why they insist on Photo ID "and a full written name" before they'll let you up. However I didn't get the chance to test this out yesterday because when I arrived the roof terrace was "closed due to essential maintenance work", inconveniencing probably nobody but myself.
Sky Garden is really the only one that does not make it hard. No need to book - just pop up there for with your sandwiches for lunch, and I think it's the best roof garden in city.
You might need to queue for a little while on a weekend or at prime lunchtime.
The others you need to book weeks ahead, so agree with the previous post that they do make it hard. Sky Garden is not one of them.
The odd thing is you certainly used to have book
Lived in london for over a decade, never been and I also don't think I know anyone else who's been.
To be fair it's not just that, you won't find many actual londoners in central full stop unless they're going to work
I wouldn’t say that’s an accurate generalisation.
I’ll often meet and hang out with friends in central London.
I mean they also seem to charge it? (According to the blogpost) then how is it free to the public?
This is the country where organised marches must have police approval and follow an approved route (and most acute in London). Hardly a surprise!
London's vibe is: 'privately owned, and you're lucky to be here'
Edit: I'm British btw (and currently sat in a pub in London) in case people downvote me thinking I'm a yank lol. There are many people who dislike London and the UK who aren't yanks
> This is the country where organised marches must have police approval and follow an approved route
You have to notify the police not get approval. They can "impose conditions and restrictions" for safety or to limit the rights of others to travel freely, after which they'll also be somewhat liable to protect you from counter-protesters, or lunatics trying to drive their car at you.
Just about every country requires some kind of advance notice if its not just a few people walking along the pavement/sidewalk and your going to obstruct traffic or block others movement
I know that you think you just mitigated the extreme character of what he said? But you exacerbated it.
Exactly my thoughts lol
In most countries in Europe organized marches and protests must be run by authorities. It's pretty normal here.
Protesting is a legal right but the authorities do have the right to restrict it for public order reasons. For example they often will insist on separate routes to keep conflicting groups apart. It makes sense too.
Disagree on that vibe. The museums are usually free in London, for example. Haven't seen that in many other cities.
Its not as if things are any better in the country that boasts the most about its freedoms regarding access to supposedly public spaces: https://www.instagram.com/780_lord_of_bench
Even within London people dislike each other!
Saw many non-Arsenal fans cheering for PSG yesterday.
There are thousands of protests per year in central London. The larger ones (tens of thousands of people) are going to be disrupting public transport routes than people rely on. There's an approved route so that disruption can be managed. Nothing to do with being 'privately owned'. It also doesn't help that for a large number of people 'protesting' means travelling into London, getting drunk, and fighting.
How many protestors did the U.K. police kill in the last few years, compared to, say, a very free country… like the U.S?
edit: responding to your edit, of course many British people hate London and for many valid reasons, but your reasoning is very American. Very few British people share that American view of freedom and would describe London as “privately owned”.
How many protestors did they arrest?
and the city of London is literally a private corporation.
No, it isn't. It is called 'City of London Corporation' in the sense of being a municipal corporation, but effectively it's just a local authority... except that businesses still get a vote along with citizens.
The City of London is a novel anachronism making up a square mile that nobody British would ever refer to as “London” nor do they complain about it being “private”.
> but your reasoning is very American.
For god's sake how ridiculous. Give over
What's your basis for commenting on us Brits? You can't even spell UK correctly (we don't use full stops. That's an Americanism / hypercorrection). You spell with a z, so not a Brit
I am no less British than you. I was born in England, raised in England, educated in England, voted in England, my parents were born in England, my grandparents were born in England, my great grandparents were born in England… so on and so forth. I am very sorry that my choice to use American spelling on an American website offends you.
The irony is that the beliefs you’re espousing are an infection caused by U.S. cultural dominance of politics on the Internet. Anti-woke right wing people are heavily influenced by American political attitudes. Do you also believe in Birmingham’s no-go zones?
British people are miserable and cynical and hate everything about our godforsaken country but London being “privately owned” is not one of those things. Civilized protest is not one of those things.
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another britisher here. i agree with parent.
oh the delicious irony of the GP being anti-americanisation while regurgitating US right wing talking points
side note: the fact that right wing politicians in the UK (tories/reform) are literally copy pasting US stuff is frankly a fucking national embarrassment. literally importing their views, rhetoric and policies from another country, oh the irony.
"britisher" lmao. Absolutely nobody calls themselves a "britisher". Nice try
Bore off
The IRA is more “British” than some of these commentators.
My beautiful bloo passport would disagree.
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I lived and worked in that area for many years. I have walked through Whitechapel day and night. Yes, there are a lot of Muslims in the area due to the nearby mosque. The only violence or trouble I ever experienced in the area was with other white people. Whitechapel is a busy part of central London, if you're going to choose a part of London to claim that there is a no go zone, at least try somewhere that isn't on the tourist track, like Poplar (although that isn't a no go zone either, but it's at least a little more plausible).
"Auditing" videos are antagonists causing trouble and videoing it, often either deceptively editing or outright fabricating interactions. People, of course, have strong views, regardless of race or religion, and antagonising them is going to bring out the most extreme of those views. Going to an area with many muslims and trying to antagonise muslims does not make a no-go zone. You can go to whitechapel any time day or night and the only risk is a pissed up local, which, ironically, won't be a Muslim because they don't drink. Alcohol is the main cause of danger in London.
> I lived and worked in that area for many years.
Wow what an amazing coincidence. I bet you've lived in Dewsbury, Oldham, Bradford and Oldham too
> won't be a Muslim because they don't drink.
Lol straight up lies. I went to uni with a few Muslims, and live in an area with many, and they definitely like a drink. They /say/ they don't drink. There's a difference. This again shows you're ignorant of British (British Muslim) culture
Practicing Muslims, ie the ones that would be worshiping in a mosque in Whitechapel, are unlikely to be the same pissed up uni students that you’re thinking of.
Just like not all Jewish people are orthodox and not all Christian’s are catholic.
The GP was correct when they rebutted your “no-go” claim.
You're conflating practicing and non-practicing Muslims. The scary violent gang of Muslims enforcing the "no go zone" of Whitechapel by violencing every white person who dares stray from gentrified Shoreditch to the wild east of Whitechapel are practicing Muslims, and every single one of them is sober. If you're not too scared, you could go and ask.
And yes, someone who lived in London for most of their adult life will have spent a lot of time in major parts of the city, that is not very surprising. I ate at the Whitechapel McDonalds hundreds of times.
In case you're interested, the most dangerous part of London I've lived was Mile End because of that weird, creepy, hideous hotel, next to the bus stop, that turned out to be the one used by the Russian poisoners that came to London on their way to wherever it was they killed those people. I was metres away from Novichok! Far scarier than any Muslim.
I had a similar experience recently on the other side of the river, though less extreme I think. Between London Bridge and Greenwich there are a few stretches that are ostensibly "public" but not that easy to access. Some are behind gates that are in fact unlocked, so you can just walk through, if you try, but they don't look very welcoming or accessible so I think a lot of people probably don't even bother. Other times the gates are in fact locked for non-residents and you can access the river by some other more roundabout way.
Bit of an aside, but although the area around Greenwich is lovely, I've always preferred walking the Thames Path out west, eg Putney to Richmond. Very peaceful and green, and IIRC all pretty accessible (apart from a stretch of the path near Barnes that is completely underwater when the tide is high).
California has a similar issue where all beaches are legally supposed to be public, but owners of beachfront properties often have different ideas...
Taking a chainsaw to said fence on the request of a non-emergency request line would be perfectly legal. They are obstructing public space, no different from a pothole or an abandoned vehicle.
Doesn't the UK (or at least England) also have some kind of network of public pathways, many of which are on private property? Are there similar conflicts in that system, or does it work differently somehow?
Yes. It's a little different between England & Wales, Scotland, and NI, but public rights of way (footpaths and bridleways) are very much a thing.
My experience is that it works well in general, but some landowners are better than others, and some highway authorities (which enforce the laws) are more zealous than others. Most of the issues I see around me is farmers allowing crops to grow through low use footpaths such that they become impassable.
The other tricky bit of PRoWs is that any path used by the public for 20 years continuously, without force, secrecy, or the landowner's permission, is legally presumed to be a public right of way, even if it isn't shown on the definitive map kept by the local authority. That can lead to legal fights e.g. [1] and [2]. There are also 'permissive footpaths' where landowners have agreed to allow the public to pass, but not become a PRoW. There are also s106 agreements (planning obligations) where developers must allow the public to use land as a footpath. The Thames Path has a mix of these.
In Scotland, there is a more general 'right to roam' which allows anybody to access most land (excepting buildings and their curtilages, military sites, and other obvious exceptions), but there are affirmative duties to maintain PRoWs that don't apply to open access land making them still relevant. England and Wales have some limited open access land as well, but much much less of it. NI has no open access land and (subjectively) fewer public footpaths.
I built https://exploralista.io exactly for this use case. Still waiting for the universe to make up for my lack of marketing skills.
it's a nice idea!
but yes there is very sparse information and instead of examples i get "NetworkError when attempting to fetch resource." and it says "free" here and there but free forever, free until?
Ah, sorry about the error! I guess it could use some optimisation. It will remain free for the users. I haven't thought about monetisation but for sure it won't be on the final user. Either ads or sponsored places by companies etc. Similar to TripAdvisor
What about Crossrail Place in Canary Wharf, doesn't count?
Otherwise there are plenty of other roof terraces which are bars/restaurants. Typically more enjoyable as you don't have to book tickets and you get to enjoy a drink.
I think some people might not count Canary Wharf's various gardens as examples of this because while Canary Wharf is a private estate that is open to the public, the parks and green spaces aren't a quiet strategy to get buildings approved, they're part of the estate's broad strategy to be green and welcoming. Canary Wharf actively encourages visitors to all of their green spaces.
> Alas it also had great views into the apartments at Neo Bankside whose residents ultimately sued and won, thus if you arrive by lift today you can only visit the cafe
bummer
Been to most of these. They're nice.
If you've got friends/fam with you it is definitely worth paying for the observation deck at the shard.
I try to pop to One New Change whenever I’m in London just to visit the terrace there. If you’re in the area, worth a look!
> Tate Modern had high hopes for the 10th floor of the Blatnavik Building with its cafe and a four-sided observation terrace with excellent views of the Thames. Alas it also had great views into the apartments at Neo Bankside whose residents ultimately sued and won, thus if you arrive by lift today you can only visit the cafe.
I was curious about what type of arguments you could make to win a case like this.
"The Supreme Court commented that the degree of overlooking from visitors to the Tate gallery was so extreme it subjected the residents to being “much like being on display in a zoo” and held that there is no reason why constant visual intrusion cannot give rise to liability for nuisance."
Really strange take, that applies to so many situations where tourists gather
It affected rich people, wouldn't surprise me if one of them knew the judge.
No need for that. It’s England, preferential treatment depends more on your social class than who you know, in such cases. Knowing powerful people definitely can help in some contexts, but the judiciary is well insulated in that respect.
This was a decision made by five supreme court justices in a 3/2 split, do you have any particular reason to believe there has been corruption involved in this UK litigation?
The case was a very big deal in London. The outcome was not one of bias, but complicated circumstance.
The apartment building was built years before the Tate Modern opened their viewing floor. After the Tate Modern viewing floor opened, visitors to the Tate Modern began photographing and videoing and watching people in the neighbouring apartment building.
The judge reasonably determined that there is some sacrifice of privacy made when choosing to live in a glass apartment building, but the Tate Modern's viewing floor's compromise of privacy was so egregious that it should not be allowed regardless of planning permission.
There are many buildings all over London that look over one another, many of those occupied by very very rich people, it was not corruption.
How can privacy be egregiously violated? Isn’t it just you have a window to look in or not? And every building has windows to look in if you choose to not draw the blinds?
If I secretly hide a camera in your bedroom, would the violation of privacy be made more egregious if I then went ahead and broadcast that footage on TV?
>Isn’t it just you have a window to look in or not? And every building has windows to look in if you choose to not draw the blinds?
For example, there would be a pretty big difference between my neighbour being able to see into my apartment and my neighbour organising tour groups to look into my apartment.
I don't mind my neighbour, it is reasonable to expect that my neighbours will be able to see into my apartment. I however could not reasonably expect that my neighbours would host some sort of organised viewing activity on a regular basis.
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However, Tate got the permission to build the viewing deck before the apartments were built.
Curtains were invented several hundred years ago because of this issue.
I didn't know they had instagram and smartphones back then, those were key elements here.
British people don't have curtains?
Not really, it’s very common in the UK to not having curtains or closed curtains even if you live on the street level. You can walk in a town and literally watch TV through the windows.
In a tall apartment / skyscraper I bet not more than 10% ever have or close their curtain. Also they paid those prices to look at that view so they want to do that. (A flat there is £1-5M)
Curtains open, telly blaring and the big light on. You could be on any street in Britain.
Come on, this was just gross by Tate and the supreme court was right to put a stop to it. I visited the extension before it opened, it was obvious this was going to be a problem.
A busy viewing terrace is not an ordinary use of space, building one looking right into private homes isn't cool regardless of how wealthy the residents of those homes are.
Can’t all tall buildings see into neighboring buildings? I’ve often seen into peoples houses and watched them eat dinner etc.
Yes? That wasn't the complaint.
Do you have 20+ people looking into your home all day long, taking photos and posting them on instagram?
Visitors in the viewing gallery frequently look into the claimants' flats and take
photographs, and less frequently view the claimants and their flats with binoculars.
Photographs of the flats are posted on social media by visitors. On the platform
Instagram there were 124 posts in the period between June 2016 and April 2018. It has
been estimated that those posts reached an audience of 38,600. Mann J found that
there was a significant number of people using the viewing gallery who demonstrated
a visual interest in the interiors of the flats, including by looking, peering in, taking
photographs and waving to the occupants. He accepted that their numbers and the
level of interest were such that a homeowner would reasonably regard this as intrusive
so far as the use of the south side of the viewing gallery was concerned (by contrast,
the western side of the viewing gallery is at an oblique angle to the flats, offering only
a limited view into them).
(This goes on and on, and at no point does it sound any better for Tate)
I think it would be slightly different if you built and advertised a viewing gallery for that purpose.
Supreme Court judges do not express "takes". They make legal judgements and express legal opinion based on years of experience and deep knowledge of the law. They deserve a bit more respect than a likening to some random Redditor having a "take"
Note that this comment does not apply to every country.
Good thing the post is about the UK and we here are capable of staying on topic
Really cool!!
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You do know that London has a relatively low homicide rate don't you?
Knife crime is generally an order of magnatude lower than many US cities I'd also be happy to visit.
It's higher than the rest of the UK but then it is a big city.
(I live in a very rural and crime free part of the UK but love visiting London).
> more likely to get planning permission if their new skyscraper included a free public roof terrace
If that's the deal, it's crazy that some of those places are getting away with then discouraging the public from actually going there. Book your visit in advance! Present ID! Photography forbidden! This grumpy security guard will be hovering nearby <3
It's like Nathan For You S03E01 where a store advertises a $1 TV, then tells the drawn in would-be customers to please respect the black tie dress code, crawl through a tiny door, and squeeze past the alligator.
The problem is worse outside London, hotels in conservation areas that get planning for health clubs on the basis that locals can buy memberships too, then quietly withdrawn. A car park that should be open for public paid parking becomes private.
It's a fantastic idea, but enforcement sucks on intangible things like this. In a few years time I'm sure it will be 'closed for maintenance' then never reopen to the public or a nice restaurant will go up there and suddenly you'll need a restaurant booking to use the lift.
You must book in advance because they’re incredibly popular, huge queues, long waits, and capacity limits. The Sky Garden (Fenchurch Building) is huge, beautiful and absolutely packed with people. Many people consider it a London must visit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_Fenchurch_Street#Sky_garden
Capacity may indeed be a reason for requiring advance bookings.
But it doesn't explain the ridiculous security (scanning gates, had to take off my hat and belt, insulin pump was inspected), the prohibition of "professional" photography equipment, prohibition of own food and drinks (again, diabetes, I want to carry some lemonade and a bar for emergency), etc etc.
Is it to counter terrorism? To boost consuming at the establishments? Or is it a lame excuse thats in reality just a higher bar to entry?
> Is it to counter terrorism?
They’re worried that if there was an incident they might get sued for having inadequate security.
I’ve spent a lot of time going to places with security like this (airports, museums etc) and getting a belt with plastic buckles (you can get them at outdoor clothing stores) saves a lot of hassle.
Have you visited The View from The Shard? A very expensive visit, with exactly the same security checks as Sky Garden. Security in tall buildings is high (even if that security is mostly theatre).
"Certain items cannot be brought into The View from The Shard including large bags and backpacks, over the size of 22 x 15 x 8 inches (55 x 38 x 20 cm) or other large equipment."
"We ask guests to walk through metal detectors, which use a low-frequency electromagnetic field to look for metal items."
https://www.theviewfromtheshard.com/frequently-asked-questio...
This is also true for visitors to the offices located in the shard, it's very annoying to unload a overnight bag when trying to visit an office. I always wondered what the purpose was as regular employees skip the security queue
If you graph obesity and excess security, especially these "metal detectors", there is correlation, thus we should all sue.
>Is it to counter terrorism? To boost consuming at the establishments? Or is it a lame excuse thats in reality just a higher bar to entry?
Incentives align among all three.
Ok that one looks legit :)
I was thinking more about his experience with e.g. the last one on the page, Roof Garden at The Post Building:
> I still don't understand why it's here nor why it's open daily, nor why they insist on Photo ID "and a full written name" before they'll let you up. However I didn't get the chance to test this out yesterday because when I arrived the roof terrace was "closed due to essential maintenance work", inconveniencing probably nobody but myself.
Sky Garden is really the only one that does not make it hard. No need to book - just pop up there for with your sandwiches for lunch, and I think it's the best roof garden in city.
You might need to queue for a little while on a weekend or at prime lunchtime.
The others you need to book weeks ahead, so agree with the previous post that they do make it hard. Sky Garden is not one of them.
The odd thing is you certainly used to have book
Lived in london for over a decade, never been and I also don't think I know anyone else who's been.
To be fair it's not just that, you won't find many actual londoners in central full stop unless they're going to work
I wouldn’t say that’s an accurate generalisation.
I’ll often meet and hang out with friends in central London.
I mean they also seem to charge it? (According to the blogpost) then how is it free to the public?
This is the country where organised marches must have police approval and follow an approved route (and most acute in London). Hardly a surprise!
London's vibe is: 'privately owned, and you're lucky to be here'
Edit: I'm British btw (and currently sat in a pub in London) in case people downvote me thinking I'm a yank lol. There are many people who dislike London and the UK who aren't yanks
> This is the country where organised marches must have police approval and follow an approved route
You have to notify the police not get approval. They can "impose conditions and restrictions" for safety or to limit the rights of others to travel freely, after which they'll also be somewhat liable to protect you from counter-protesters, or lunatics trying to drive their car at you.
Just about every country requires some kind of advance notice if its not just a few people walking along the pavement/sidewalk and your going to obstruct traffic or block others movement
https://groups.friendsoftheearth.uk/resources/your-rights-an...
I know that you think you just mitigated the extreme character of what he said? But you exacerbated it.
Exactly my thoughts lol
In most countries in Europe organized marches and protests must be run by authorities. It's pretty normal here.
Protesting is a legal right but the authorities do have the right to restrict it for public order reasons. For example they often will insist on separate routes to keep conflicting groups apart. It makes sense too.
Disagree on that vibe. The museums are usually free in London, for example. Haven't seen that in many other cities.
Its not as if things are any better in the country that boasts the most about its freedoms regarding access to supposedly public spaces: https://www.instagram.com/780_lord_of_bench
Even within London people dislike each other!
Saw many non-Arsenal fans cheering for PSG yesterday.
There are thousands of protests per year in central London. The larger ones (tens of thousands of people) are going to be disrupting public transport routes than people rely on. There's an approved route so that disruption can be managed. Nothing to do with being 'privately owned'. It also doesn't help that for a large number of people 'protesting' means travelling into London, getting drunk, and fighting.
How many protestors did the U.K. police kill in the last few years, compared to, say, a very free country… like the U.S?
edit: responding to your edit, of course many British people hate London and for many valid reasons, but your reasoning is very American. Very few British people share that American view of freedom and would describe London as “privately owned”.
How many protestors did they arrest?
and the city of London is literally a private corporation.
No, it isn't. It is called 'City of London Corporation' in the sense of being a municipal corporation, but effectively it's just a local authority... except that businesses still get a vote along with citizens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_corporation
The City of London is a novel anachronism making up a square mile that nobody British would ever refer to as “London” nor do they complain about it being “private”.
> but your reasoning is very American.
For god's sake how ridiculous. Give over
What's your basis for commenting on us Brits? You can't even spell UK correctly (we don't use full stops. That's an Americanism / hypercorrection). You spell with a z, so not a Brit
I am no less British than you. I was born in England, raised in England, educated in England, voted in England, my parents were born in England, my grandparents were born in England, my great grandparents were born in England… so on and so forth. I am very sorry that my choice to use American spelling on an American website offends you.
The irony is that the beliefs you’re espousing are an infection caused by U.S. cultural dominance of politics on the Internet. Anti-woke right wing people are heavily influenced by American political attitudes. Do you also believe in Birmingham’s no-go zones?
British people are miserable and cynical and hate everything about our godforsaken country but London being “privately owned” is not one of those things. Civilized protest is not one of those things.
another britisher here. i agree with parent.
oh the delicious irony of the GP being anti-americanisation while regurgitating US right wing talking points
side note: the fact that right wing politicians in the UK (tories/reform) are literally copy pasting US stuff is frankly a fucking national embarrassment. literally importing their views, rhetoric and policies from another country, oh the irony.
"britisher" lmao. Absolutely nobody calls themselves a "britisher". Nice try
Bore off
The IRA is more “British” than some of these commentators.
My beautiful bloo passport would disagree.
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I lived and worked in that area for many years. I have walked through Whitechapel day and night. Yes, there are a lot of Muslims in the area due to the nearby mosque. The only violence or trouble I ever experienced in the area was with other white people. Whitechapel is a busy part of central London, if you're going to choose a part of London to claim that there is a no go zone, at least try somewhere that isn't on the tourist track, like Poplar (although that isn't a no go zone either, but it's at least a little more plausible).
"Auditing" videos are antagonists causing trouble and videoing it, often either deceptively editing or outright fabricating interactions. People, of course, have strong views, regardless of race or religion, and antagonising them is going to bring out the most extreme of those views. Going to an area with many muslims and trying to antagonise muslims does not make a no-go zone. You can go to whitechapel any time day or night and the only risk is a pissed up local, which, ironically, won't be a Muslim because they don't drink. Alcohol is the main cause of danger in London.
> I lived and worked in that area for many years.
Wow what an amazing coincidence. I bet you've lived in Dewsbury, Oldham, Bradford and Oldham too
> won't be a Muslim because they don't drink.
Lol straight up lies. I went to uni with a few Muslims, and live in an area with many, and they definitely like a drink. They /say/ they don't drink. There's a difference. This again shows you're ignorant of British (British Muslim) culture
Practicing Muslims, ie the ones that would be worshiping in a mosque in Whitechapel, are unlikely to be the same pissed up uni students that you’re thinking of.
Just like not all Jewish people are orthodox and not all Christian’s are catholic.
The GP was correct when they rebutted your “no-go” claim.
You're conflating practicing and non-practicing Muslims. The scary violent gang of Muslims enforcing the "no go zone" of Whitechapel by violencing every white person who dares stray from gentrified Shoreditch to the wild east of Whitechapel are practicing Muslims, and every single one of them is sober. If you're not too scared, you could go and ask.
And yes, someone who lived in London for most of their adult life will have spent a lot of time in major parts of the city, that is not very surprising. I ate at the Whitechapel McDonalds hundreds of times.
In case you're interested, the most dangerous part of London I've lived was Mile End because of that weird, creepy, hideous hotel, next to the bus stop, that turned out to be the one used by the Russian poisoners that came to London on their way to wherever it was they killed those people. I was metres away from Novichok! Far scarier than any Muslim.
There is a similar trap in walking the Thames path through London. Some is privately owned and you are made to not feel welcome, odd rules, buttons to press etc. Guardian has a 2015 piece https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/feb/24/private-londo...
I had a similar experience recently on the other side of the river, though less extreme I think. Between London Bridge and Greenwich there are a few stretches that are ostensibly "public" but not that easy to access. Some are behind gates that are in fact unlocked, so you can just walk through, if you try, but they don't look very welcoming or accessible so I think a lot of people probably don't even bother. Other times the gates are in fact locked for non-residents and you can access the river by some other more roundabout way.
Bit of an aside, but although the area around Greenwich is lovely, I've always preferred walking the Thames Path out west, eg Putney to Richmond. Very peaceful and green, and IIRC all pretty accessible (apart from a stretch of the path near Barnes that is completely underwater when the tide is high).
California has a similar issue where all beaches are legally supposed to be public, but owners of beachfront properties often have different ideas...
https://nypost.com/2024/02/29/business/california-hoa-with-f...
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/02/california-w...
https://www.hcn.org/articles/public-lands-a-battle-over-beac...
Taking a chainsaw to said fence on the request of a non-emergency request line would be perfectly legal. They are obstructing public space, no different from a pothole or an abandoned vehicle.
Doesn't the UK (or at least England) also have some kind of network of public pathways, many of which are on private property? Are there similar conflicts in that system, or does it work differently somehow?
Yes. It's a little different between England & Wales, Scotland, and NI, but public rights of way (footpaths and bridleways) are very much a thing.
My experience is that it works well in general, but some landowners are better than others, and some highway authorities (which enforce the laws) are more zealous than others. Most of the issues I see around me is farmers allowing crops to grow through low use footpaths such that they become impassable.
The other tricky bit of PRoWs is that any path used by the public for 20 years continuously, without force, secrecy, or the landowner's permission, is legally presumed to be a public right of way, even if it isn't shown on the definitive map kept by the local authority. That can lead to legal fights e.g. [1] and [2]. There are also 'permissive footpaths' where landowners have agreed to allow the public to pass, but not become a PRoW. There are also s106 agreements (planning obligations) where developers must allow the public to use land as a footpath. The Thames Path has a mix of these.
In Scotland, there is a more general 'right to roam' which allows anybody to access most land (excepting buildings and their curtilages, military sites, and other obvious exceptions), but there are affirmative duties to maintain PRoWs that don't apply to open access land making them still relevant. England and Wales have some limited open access land as well, but much much less of it. NI has no open access land and (subjectively) fewer public footpaths.
[1] https://www.ramblers.org.uk/news/ramblers-win-court-appeal-1... [2] https://www.ube.ac.uk/whats-happening/articles/pippa-middlet...
> you are made to not feel welcome, odd rules, buttons to press etc
Or closed for years at a time due to construction.
LOL!
>City Hall sits entirely on a private estate owned by a Kuwaiti investment company. Protesters are not allowed to gather without corporate permission.
This hasn’t been the case since 2022: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Hall,_London_(Newham)
I built https://exploralista.io exactly for this use case. Still waiting for the universe to make up for my lack of marketing skills.
it's a nice idea!
but yes there is very sparse information and instead of examples i get "NetworkError when attempting to fetch resource." and it says "free" here and there but free forever, free until?
Ah, sorry about the error! I guess it could use some optimisation. It will remain free for the users. I haven't thought about monetisation but for sure it won't be on the final user. Either ads or sponsored places by companies etc. Similar to TripAdvisor
The equivalent in San Francisco: https://sfpopos.com/
What about Crossrail Place in Canary Wharf, doesn't count?
Otherwise there are plenty of other roof terraces which are bars/restaurants. Typically more enjoyable as you don't have to book tickets and you get to enjoy a drink.
I think some people might not count Canary Wharf's various gardens as examples of this because while Canary Wharf is a private estate that is open to the public, the parks and green spaces aren't a quiet strategy to get buildings approved, they're part of the estate's broad strategy to be green and welcoming. Canary Wharf actively encourages visitors to all of their green spaces.
> Alas it also had great views into the apartments at Neo Bankside whose residents ultimately sued and won, thus if you arrive by lift today you can only visit the cafe
bummer
Been to most of these. They're nice.
If you've got friends/fam with you it is definitely worth paying for the observation deck at the shard.
I try to pop to One New Change whenever I’m in London just to visit the terrace there. If you’re in the area, worth a look!
> Tate Modern had high hopes for the 10th floor of the Blatnavik Building with its cafe and a four-sided observation terrace with excellent views of the Thames. Alas it also had great views into the apartments at Neo Bankside whose residents ultimately sued and won, thus if you arrive by lift today you can only visit the cafe.
I was curious about what type of arguments you could make to win a case like this.
"The Supreme Court commented that the degree of overlooking from visitors to the Tate gallery was so extreme it subjected the residents to being “much like being on display in a zoo” and held that there is no reason why constant visual intrusion cannot give rise to liability for nuisance."
https://www.tlt.com/insights-and-events/insight/supreme-cour...
Really strange take, that applies to so many situations where tourists gather
It affected rich people, wouldn't surprise me if one of them knew the judge.
No need for that. It’s England, preferential treatment depends more on your social class than who you know, in such cases. Knowing powerful people definitely can help in some contexts, but the judiciary is well insulated in that respect.
This was a decision made by five supreme court justices in a 3/2 split, do you have any particular reason to believe there has been corruption involved in this UK litigation?
The case was a very big deal in London. The outcome was not one of bias, but complicated circumstance.
The apartment building was built years before the Tate Modern opened their viewing floor. After the Tate Modern viewing floor opened, visitors to the Tate Modern began photographing and videoing and watching people in the neighbouring apartment building.
The judge reasonably determined that there is some sacrifice of privacy made when choosing to live in a glass apartment building, but the Tate Modern's viewing floor's compromise of privacy was so egregious that it should not be allowed regardless of planning permission.
There are many buildings all over London that look over one another, many of those occupied by very very rich people, it was not corruption.
How can privacy be egregiously violated? Isn’t it just you have a window to look in or not? And every building has windows to look in if you choose to not draw the blinds?
If I secretly hide a camera in your bedroom, would the violation of privacy be made more egregious if I then went ahead and broadcast that footage on TV?
>Isn’t it just you have a window to look in or not? And every building has windows to look in if you choose to not draw the blinds?
For example, there would be a pretty big difference between my neighbour being able to see into my apartment and my neighbour organising tour groups to look into my apartment.
I don't mind my neighbour, it is reasonable to expect that my neighbours will be able to see into my apartment. I however could not reasonably expect that my neighbours would host some sort of organised viewing activity on a regular basis.
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However, Tate got the permission to build the viewing deck before the apartments were built.
Curtains were invented several hundred years ago because of this issue.
I didn't know they had instagram and smartphones back then, those were key elements here.
British people don't have curtains?
Not really, it’s very common in the UK to not having curtains or closed curtains even if you live on the street level. You can walk in a town and literally watch TV through the windows.
In a tall apartment / skyscraper I bet not more than 10% ever have or close their curtain. Also they paid those prices to look at that view so they want to do that. (A flat there is £1-5M)
Curtains open, telly blaring and the big light on. You could be on any street in Britain.
Come on, this was just gross by Tate and the supreme court was right to put a stop to it. I visited the extension before it opened, it was obvious this was going to be a problem.
A busy viewing terrace is not an ordinary use of space, building one looking right into private homes isn't cool regardless of how wealthy the residents of those homes are.
Can’t all tall buildings see into neighboring buildings? I’ve often seen into peoples houses and watched them eat dinner etc.
Yes? That wasn't the complaint.
Do you have 20+ people looking into your home all day long, taking photos and posting them on instagram?
(This goes on and on, and at no point does it sound any better for Tate)I think it would be slightly different if you built and advertised a viewing gallery for that purpose.
Supreme Court judges do not express "takes". They make legal judgements and express legal opinion based on years of experience and deep knowledge of the law. They deserve a bit more respect than a likening to some random Redditor having a "take"
Note that this comment does not apply to every country.
Good thing the post is about the UK and we here are capable of staying on topic
Really cool!!
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You do know that London has a relatively low homicide rate don't you?
Knife crime is generally an order of magnatude lower than many US cities I'd also be happy to visit.
It's higher than the rest of the UK but then it is a big city.
(I live in a very rural and crime free part of the UK but love visiting London).
https://observer.co.uk/news/national/article/the-image-of-la...
There's also essentially zero overlap between the people who complain about knife crime, and the people who encounter knife crime in London.